Any comment W_Fortenberry?

I wanted to respond to Post #66 but will have to spend some time compiling some information.
Please allow me to itemize and test my references since I have only recently joined this forum.
Your argument is exhaustive but interesting and certainly does compel the Bible believer to question his/her foundations. This may take some time but I will assume that given your zeal for trying to prove the Bible wrong, that you are at least in search for answers. You may end up being pleasantly surprised or I may end up frustrated.
If you want to email me in the interim, it is rmcronal@bm.ibm.com

"[I find it interesting that the hundreds of pages these people invested in moral lessons regarding the miraculous aspects of their history contain absolutely no comment regarding these lifespans! People today are buzzing with excitement about it but the biblical authors don't even seem to notice. No reiteration. No moralization. No object lesson. No comment at all. You would think that at least one of the two dozen authors would have penned a short verse exclaiming ...
"Gee! These guys lived ten times longer than we do!"]"Please excuse my inability to present your quote properly at present. I think we need to be looking at the bigger picture here. You need to be able to look at this from the perspective of those that lived at the time. Just imagine that the Patriarch did live a long time. I know it is difficult but simply imagine. It would be abnormal to not live as long. There would be no real issue to record in the Bible except the fact that "gee....we guys are not living as long as we should". However, just for you, the Lord left a few words to help you in Genesis chapter 6:
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.So not only is there a reference to "me which were of old" but God also makes a stipulation that his days would come to a limit.But the bigger picture lays in pagan history. Those historians that have opted to throw out the table of nations as a reputable family tree, have robbed you of the information to trace lineages down through the ages of all of humankind. Believe it or not, there are not only agnostic and atheist historians. Many very skilled and knowledgeable historians are Christian and have been able to tie together much of the early generations that have given birth to the countries and cultures of the earth.What we see in the myth of most cultures, especially from the meditarranean area, is simply ancestor worship. because these forefathers lived for such a long time, they were able to leave a legacy that lingered in pagan renderings of the reality that then was.For example, Japheth was "the progenitor of many nations". The early Greeks worshipped him as "IAPETOS, or IAPETUS, whom they regarded as the son of heaven and earth, and the father of many nations." Look to to the pagan mythology and instead of putting the cart before the horse and presupposing that the Bible was a product of pagan ideology, realize that it was the other way around. In the ancient Sanskrit vedas of India, Japheth is remembered as "PRA-JAPATI, the sun and ostensible Lord of Creation." the Romans assimilated him into there pantheon as "IUPATER, which eventually became that of Jupiter." It is commonly held by most historians that these names are not of Greek, Indian or Latin origin so why not recognize that they are: "mere corruptions of the Hebrew name of Japheth. Similarly, the early Saxon races perpetuated his name as Sceaf, (Pr. 'sheef,' or 'shaif,') and recorded his name in their early genealogies as the son of Noah, the forebear of their various peoples."There are extensive studies to show how the table of nations ties into our early histories. Secular, agnostic and atheist disbelief have worked wonders on those that need to find any way to doubt the authenticity of the Bible. If they can do this, then they do not have to live up to the fact that the Bible is right and therefore they will be judged by a righteous God that has appointed a day and an hour. Don't let your own pride keep you from the truth.------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

And you would be correct given what is written in the post.However, an unbelief never has to defend its own belief because it is automatically opposed to anything that it chooses to be opposed to. Make no mistake that just because there is no expressed stand on any one platform/belief/idiology, doesn't mean that a particular master is not served. The unbeliever simply has the benefit in cases like this of throwing their hands in the air and saying "...but I am simply seeking the truth without any former bias or prejudice".
Archaeology that goes out in search of the truth without any prior bias to what it expects to find, will have to place its faith in something. In most cases today, it will be in the equipment used to date sand/rock/bone/ceramics that well meaning scientists use. We all know that these methods and methodologies are infallible right? Just look at Piltsdown man and Lucy.I bow to your observation and recognise that my statement was more of an attempt to attack character than argument. The good news is that I'll consider my error and do humbly apologize.------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

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If you click on the link for UBB codes it will open a page telling you, among other things, how to quote.

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Now I truly am blessed.....Thanks------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Look at Bill Cooper's work. Reputable?..... Probably not, by modern standards where you would need to have a PHD in plumbing to qualify as a reputable janitor. (No distrespect to the janitorial profession intended).And with reference to my quote of Genesis Chapter 6.... your point is well taken but perhaps my meaning was misconstrued. I was trying to point out that the Bible isn't silent about the Patriarchs and their ages for what might be obvious reasons to us today. I am sorry for my obvious cynical and sarcastic tone.
Perhaps there were other reasons for the way that the history was recorded. It would be prudent for any Bible believer to acknowledge that Moses did not sit and compile the first five books from memory, he must have had some form of written/enscribed record (e.g. cuniform). Those recording these early records, probably would have stuck to the facts and what was probably relevent to them at the time. How do we put ourselves in their shoes?
It surprises me that nothing was mentioned by you in this instance of the fact that these "men who were of old" were the product of "the sons of God". Most Bible believers would see that as a direct reference to the angels as is portrayed in Job and elsewhere. Would God have allowed the angels to procreate with humans? How would I ever be able to convince you of these appeals to the supernatural if you look and understand with eyes and thinking that is entrenched in what I can only descibe as the reality we see today? I do not blame you or judge you for this, it is only my personal observation.I have spent a good long time in conversations like these, and unfortunately they don't really go anywhere but around in circles.I usually like to ask my friends the following questions.... I realize that I should probably open some new threads but consider if you like....1. Why do you think that we as Christians try so hard to convince the unbeliever of the truth (albeit our own belief)of what is written in the Bible?
2. Conversely, why do you think that unbelievers will debate so strongly against it?
3. What are the motives of both sides to these debates?------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Dear Brian,I was being facetious. Again, my sarcasm has gotten the better of me.Your response is well noted and your two major points come near and dear to my heart.With all due respect to your scholarship, dating methods have not changed in their basic assumptions. Radio-metric dating still has to stand on the presupposition that decay has been constant over the years and has not been affected by external forces. Selectively choosing samples of rock to draw conclusions on dates that are in excess of millions of years is woefully optimistic. I think you are looking at methods used for younger ages though. Carbon dating is an awsome methodology, but is fundamentaly flawed. that has not changed. We still have to depend on methods that track the age of artifacts over periods of time that exceed our current lifetimes. the science continues to try to perfect these methods but at each turn, something new comes to light to show that previous dates were wrong. I do not stand by any of these methods and therefore render myself obsolete in this debate.

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"Arcaheologists also have an added confidence in dating techiniques nowadays because so many different techniques often yield the same results, or within an accepted 'window' of error.

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Often is not every time and an accepted 'window' of error is just another way to shake hands and agree that we are close to what we expect it should be. "Accepted windows of error" have been the dating game's motto from the start.Concerning the lack of evidence for things that we are looking for (e.g. The Exodus)..... you may be right.To break away from the wretched discussions of dating methods and books like "Bones Of Contention" or "Tornado In a Junkyard" have you ever seen the evidence of the Exodus presented that supposedly exists in Saudi Arabia?
The whole track laid out with the bitter springs, the seventy palms oasis, the tombs, the golden calf altar and Jabal-Al-Lawz?
Perhaps we have not found the evidence we so desperately need because we are looking in the wrong place? That might go for Kadesh-Barnea as well.------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

OK.... I'll buy that for a dollar but what I have seen is that references to Snorri Sturlusson's Prose Edda are that it is either mythology or reads like mythology.
So am I to assume that your assertion is that it is a reliable source of historical data in the absolute? Or is it not?Or is it simply a case that Bill Cooper's use of the Prose Edda is to show that there is some link, regardless of the fact that the details of either the Bible or the Edda may be wrong?I doubt that Bill Cooper is trying to show that the Edda supports the Bible's Table Of Nations absolutely. I am sure he would agree wit your comments as well (I do not know this for certain however). I would imagine that his work is based first and foremost on the presumption that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that other literary documents that may have an appeal to folklore, mythology or legend are spawned from it. It is simply to show that there is a tie somewhere.
Unfortunately for those that consider the Bible to be absolute truth, secular historians do not see this as the proper way to go about casting history in stone.
I was well aware that your response would be something to the effect of that which it was. I respect it completely. I would even agree with your comments at face value.
However my reasons for thinking that the truth is closer to what he is putting forward than to the alternative, is that there is a higher degree of plausibility in his suggestions (for me) than there is in the alternative theories put forward to our existence on this earth. Either way, we are digging into a past that does not like to be easily discovered.
Simply stated, we have a handful of old texts/manuscripts/papyrii some dating back for thousands of years or more and the substance of the Bible is in there along with it all. I simply place faith in the Bible because it has a system of prophecy and fulfillment that backs it up (again, in my opinion). Much of this is debated but never conclusively. If I choose to reject the call to faith in the Lord Jesus I will not waste time trying to figure out why. I will live for today and not care for this debate anymore. It is painful to stand on what you believe is the truth and reach for those who do not, because you believe (whether wrong or right) that their souls are in mortal danger. I choose to believe and stay in the debate..... not for my own sake..... but for people like you."Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time." ~ Colossians 4:5Remember that I believe that this isn't my fight, it is God's. I do not want glory. God's Will Be Done.------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Are you sure you understand the point I was making.I think you are asking "IN what way does the fact that Snorri Sturlusson's Prose Edda reads like mythology, distinguish it from the Book of Genesis or Joshua?"I.E. that Genesis or Joshua could be construed as mythology?I was actually pointing out that it doesn't differ. Bill Cooper's work tries to show how what is commonly called mythology, actually ties into what is presented in the Bible. Even if you believe that it is all mythology (the Bible included), the trends, themes, ideals and in this case.... the geneologies, all show similariites of origin.

I will not argue with your scholarship.
If any tie to mythology by those that seek to put forward a theory of geneologies, has a decidedly Christian Spin on it, I can only say that this is because the argument is based on the premise that the Bible is absolutely correct.Personaly, I care too much about those that are (Biblically speaking) lost to pretend that I have to play games by standards and rules of critical thinking.
Those that do not start with the premise that the Bible is accurate when seeking to find the truth about the Bible, will probably never get past the supernatural elements and will always have issues. I can't do anything about this. There is no way to naturally explain the events in the Bible. They are purposefully designed to be a stumbling block to those that cannot or will not seek God in the spirit.Concerning prophecy.... I suggest looking to those that discuss the coming of the Messiah. However, I am persuaded PaulK that this is something you have already done.
If secular history corroborates the existence of Jesus (some say it does, and others quite obviously debate) and we choose to believe that all that was written of him in the New Testament is right, then in his person, he fulfilled numerous prophecies.Each taken individually, can be doubted/debated/dismissed quite easily if there is a desire to find a reason not to believe.However, taken in its entirety, you have the fulfillment of prophecy in a supernatural and miraculous way that demands investigation.Whether we choose to look at the "evidence" and see the purpose for humanity and the provision for a relationship with God, depends on whether we are seeking God or our own justification not to seek God.I submit that those who do not see the answers in the Bible are not looking for the Truth, but are looking for reasons to justify their own motives not to believe. A bold and dogmatic statement which I could not dispute. This is why the Bible states that Satan is a deceiver. He will have humankind running around in circles chasing rabbits forever. He will do anything to keep us from finding the real truth and making a stand on it.Again I suggest to you that I have no desire to see you aquiesce to my preference. There is no glory for me in this. I am interested in issues of the heart, not issues of theories and postulations. It is all I can do to serve God the way he has asked me to, for the salvation he has given me. Jesus didn't just idly say "live a good life and there is a chance that you will get into heaven." He made bold statements like:"..... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6"..... I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" - John 11:25------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Yes and no. Yes it would appear that it is a circular argument and no, I do not claim that their work supports my "case". If my words led you to believe that, then the fault is mine, I am sorry. I think that the "claims of Cooper and the like" are interesting but I place no value in their work from a purely theological point of view. I was merely suggesting that there are alternative perspectives on how history has been recorded and that even if there are some references to Biblical Geneologies, then I see how the Bible may have affected humankind through the ages.
My "case" is not one that can stand on the precepts of man because it defies logic to stand on something that is not entirely explainable in systematic, 'logical', human terms.
I probably should have made it clear that I do not believe that the Bible needs to be defended or have its "case" put forward. Unfortunately when trying to testify of God's Grace, we find ourselves as Christians, being drawn into the thought processes of regular human thinking. Instead we should not be so concerned about trying to defend something that is not ours to defend.... if we [Christians] truly believe that the Bible is what we say it is.
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." - Isaiah 40:8
In fact, much of what permeates the entire message of the Bible is just that. In other words, there will be those that find "Truth" in its pages because they give up on trying to explain existence in their own terms and there are those that will spend their time trying to find a reason not to believe it. Either way, the Bible stands on its own, to be accepted or rejected. I can state this absolutely because the substance of it has been the basis of faith for eons and because the words of the Bible permit us as Christians to do so. One of the most wonderful "Truths" of the Bible as laid out in the parable of the sower and in other messages is that we as Christians are not responsible for the "soil" of other people's hearts. We are only responsible for spreading the Word:
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." - Hebrews 4:12 I am a little unclear as to your comment about being "reinterpreted".
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." - 2Peter 1:20
I do agree that there are Messianic Prophecies that have not been fulfilled, and I am some how convinced that you already know those relate to the return of Christ. The beauty is that Israel stumbled on their Messiah and this allowed salvation to come to the Gentiles. When Christ returns, the Jews will see him as if for the first time, and the Gentiles will see his return.
"As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." - Romans 9:33
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." - John 4:22
"That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" - Ephesians 3:6 Yes I would agree that it seems that way. However, don't shoot the messenger for the message. Or perhaps you feel that my spin on what the Bible speaks about "Truth" is open to debate or interpretation? Somehow, I don't think so. In fact, I think you have long asked yourself many serious questions about what you have found in the Bible. So consider the following that the Bible has to say about "Truth":
"Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name." - Psalms 86:11
"For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations." - Psalms 100:5
"Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth." - Psalms 119:151
"Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding." - Proverbs 23:23
"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." - John 3:21
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." - John 4:23
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive" - John 14:17
"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost" - Romans 9:1
"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus" - Ephesians 4:21
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." - 2Thessalonians 2:12
"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." - 2Timothy 3:7So if I profess to stand on what the Bible says about truth, you can accuse me of a dogmatic belief, but it is not my own personal creation. I didn't just make up an idea of what truth is. I submit to a belief that God has been with us all along and has shown us the way if we choose to follow it."Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" - Galatians 4:16PaulK, Jesus has said to you in Matthew 21:44"...whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."You will either have your heart broken on Christ, or in the end he will crush you anyway..... or that is what the Bible says.

I did expect criticism of Cooper's claim on those grounds.... and I received it.With regard to your regard, it must be clear by now that what I see when I look "into the matter" is not what you see. I make no bones about that. If you are satisfied with your scholarship and convinced in your own heart that you are closer to the truth now, I am at peace. Your knowledge is sound, your observations are clear and well noted. You seem to have a handle on the finer points of debate.Concerning the scriptures I used.... well here we go. As a matter of fact I was well aware that some of what I put forward as prophecy is from the Psalms because some of the psalms are prophetic. You can either believe that or not. Here are just a few....Psalms 2
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.Psalm 69
19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee.
20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.
21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.Psalms 22
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Alright, for the anguish I have caused you I am sorry. I sure do not want to be seen as mean-spirited. Especially since it may surprise you that I actually have your immortal soul weighing heavily on my heart!!!! I doubt if you could care less about who I am.
There is a plus side to finding salvation though. Eternal life and joy and peace and happiness and strength for the day!!!! These are all promises made categorically by Christ and thoroughly testifiable by me!!!! I have been to places in my life and depths of despair and darkness that many haven't. I found Christ, and took him at his word. He has never failed me yet.
However, I do not want you to accept anything. Christ wants you to give your life to him, not me. Without his love in me, I wouldn't give a scrap about you. Sounds pathetic I know, I am well aware of that."Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." - John 14:27
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - Matthew 11:28
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." - John 14:23 So I would be hypocritical and also a lier as well as a coward that runs from the truth?I am sorry you feel that way. Maybe one day you won't. I almost wish I could say that I hope I am wrong about all this, but I can't.------------------
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.