Any comment W_Fortenberry?

Hi Brian,Forgive me for taking so long to respond. I actually am preparing a response to your post, but as you have speculated, I have been very busy elsewhere for the past several weeks. The material of your post was such that it demanded much more than a quick, simple reply, and I have tried to devote as much research to your statements as possible. However, due to a major move; several job changes; and a much needed computer upgrade, I was forced to suspend most of my internet activity. I have, though, been able to do some physical research. I was able to obtain a copy of Israel Finkelstein's book and am nearly finished with a somewhat lengthy rebuttal of the first two chapters. I was also able to study out your statements and will be posting my response shortly. I apologize for keeping you waiting and thank you for not assuming that I had given up.Thanks,
W_Fortenberry

Hi Brian,In the thread "The Bible Unearthed - Exodus" you listed several themes which supposedly show that the Bible is unreliable. I will attempt to explain that the themes you cited are actually indicative of Biblical accuracy. Due to the length of the material being covered, I thought it best to discuss just one theme at a time.(a) Live Long and Prosper!

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The most explicit difficulty found in the Hebrew Bible is exposed without using any convoluted exegesis. It is fair to say that even the proverbial `man in the street' has major problems with accepting the life spans of certain biblical characters at face value...with the first man, Adam, living to the age of 930 (Gen. 5:5), Seth, Adam's son, lived to be 912 (Gen. 5:8), Jared 962 (Gen. 5:18), Noah 950 (Gen. 9:29)) and the longest lived person in the Bible, Methuselah, lived to the grand old age of 969 (Gen. 5:27).

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To explain this, allow me to add a few other names to your list. Shem 600, his son Arphaxad 438, his son Salah 433, his son Eber 464, his son Peleg 239, his son Reu 239, his son Serug 230, his son Nahor 148, his son Terah 205, his son Abraham 175, his son Isaac 180.As you can see there are two periods of drastic decreases to the human lifespan. The first being the degeneration from the 950 years of Noah to the 438 years of Arphaxand, and the second the degeneration from the 464 years of Eber to the 239 years of Peleg.Now these two time periods should be immediately recognized by the Bible scholar as coinciding with the two worldwide catastrophic events mentioned in Genesis. First the flood is said to have occurred during the time of Noah and Shem. Secondly, the earth is said to have been divided during the days of Peleg. Such correlation of biblical claims certainly should not go unnoticed. It is also necessary to note that after Noah and Shem who lived both before and after the flood, the Bible never again attributes to any of its characters an age of over 464. Similarly no one is attributed a lifespan of more than 239 years after the days of Peleg.Therefore we cannot simply say that the Bible attributes extraordinarily long life to many of its characters. Instead, we must qualify this statement by stating that the Bible attributes long life to those who lived before, during, or shortly after the occurrence of certain worldwide catastrophies. Stated in this manner, the long life spans listed in Scripture do not seem nearly as unnatural. It is no great stretch of the imagination to conclude that a worldwide flood is capable of destroying some part of creation that had previously guaranteed length of life. Indeed, it would seem to require a much greater stretch of the imagination to assume that such a catastrophe would not destroy many things that man had previously found to be beneficial. Thus the long life spans listed in the Bible are not indicative of its unreliability, but are fully consistent with its accounts of worldwide catastrophies.

Doctrbill,Let me mention a brief inconsistency found in your article suggesting that we assume the biblical writers meant to say months instead of years when presenting the ages of ancient men. Namely that while your primary supporting text comes from the book of Job, you neglected to demonstrate how your proposal fits in with the age of Job as given in Job 42:16 as well as with the comment made that Job "saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations."If we apply your formula of (n/12.38 + 13), we arrive at an age for Job of 11.3 years older than his age at the time of his testing. Surely he could not have seen four generations in just eleven years. Your formula then is flawed because it does not fit the very context from which you seek to derive it.

Hi Brian,Thanks for the welcome. It is good to be back. My family and I are doing very well and I trust the same is true of you and yours.

This is the second theme which you claim demonstrates the Bible's unreliability. The Bible portrays God as being a God of order (I Cor 14:40 and etc.). Thus all that the God of the Bible does will be done in an orderly fashion. If He were to choose out a people for the purpose of revealing Himself to mankind, it only stands to reason that He would interact with that nation in an orderly fashion. Thus to attempt to discredit the Bible based on the orderliness of its accounts is to presuppose that God did not interact with men as the Bible says He did. Therefore I do not agree that the systematic chronologies of the Bible are evidence of its unreliability. I will agree that it is highly unlikely that such systemization would have occurred without either the direct interaction of God among men or the direct manipulation of the entire cannon after its completion and acceptance (allow me to interject here that I do not believe such a manipulation as demanded by this explanation to be possible). The presence of orderliness alone is not sufficient evidence to discredit the Biblical accounts.

sup32string,I am sure you realize that this thread was started by Brian for the express purpose of seeking the answers that I have provided and will continue to provide to a list of statements presented in another thread. If you would be so kind as to allow us to discuss the topic for which this thread was created, I would greatly appreciate it.If you wish to argue about who has the greater burden of proof, I am sure you could start another thread to that effect. I, for one, am not the slight bit interested in who must prove what. I participate in this forum during my severly limited spare time for the sole purpose of increasing my knowledge and understanding of the debates in which I take part.Furthermore, though you may not accept the Bible as true in its entirety, I sincerly doubt that anyone here would disagree with Proverbs 18:13. Yes, it would certainly be wise to learn as much as one can about a matter before putting forth an opinion. I look forward to seeing your new thread on the burden of proof.

Very well, sup32string. I welcome you to the debate. Are you familiar with the arguments that have been presented to date? If so, please inform me of exactly which part of my answer requires further clarification. Please inform me of which sources you are referring to, where I made use of them (please quote), and why you think each specific usage is unreliable. I would be happy to answer any of your questions, but I will only do so at the proper time and place. To deviate from the topic at hand would not be beneficial to those participating in this thread. If you were to open a new thread specifically for discussing your questions, I would certainly give consideration to posting on that thread. In this thread, however, I would like to keep my posts on topic.Again, I welcome you to the debate, and I look forward to learning your view of the systematic chronologies of the Bible.

Hi Brian,Thank you for the clarification. Please forgive me for not understanding this sooner. This then is the evidence which is needed if the other claims I have made are to be taken as true. I will endeavor to obtain this evidence and present it here in a concise format. If this can be done, it would provide some validation of the statements that I have made heretofore.To begin with, I would like to direct you to my final posting (Message 80) on the "Flat Earth Beliefs" thread. In that post, I presented a summation of my argument for a geocentric model. I do not wish to get off topic by bringing that discussion into this thread, but I would like to reference it as "food for thought" when considering evidence for God's existence.I have also begun studying the Welsh revivals in hopes that they can also be used as evidence of God's interaction with His creation. If you have access to any information regarding these events, you might want to begin studying it for yourself. (I might take a while)I will be studying several along other venues as well, and will post my information as soon as possible.Thank you once again for your clarification.

According to your earlier analysis, the thirteen years are added to account for childhood years. In every case that I am aware of, these childhood years only occur once per individual. Job had obviously already passed those years by the time of his testing; therefore, it would be highly irregular to add thirteen years to the time span designated for his life after his trial.

Brian,I have begun studying the evidences of God and am prepared to present the following preliminary information.I had many avenues open to me through which to persue my search, but I chose to limit myself to just those evidences which the Bible itself claims as proof of the existence of God. Therefore I present as the first of my arguments that the existence of the world itself is evidence for the existence of God according to Psalm 19:1 and Romans 1:20. I have already presented evidence for this argument in another thread, and I would very much like to hear your opinion of that evidence.To obtain the parameters for my second argument, I searched for all of the instances of "shall know that I am the Lord" within the Bible. I found that the majority of the usages of this phrase were in reference to the fulfillment of specific prophecies. Therefore my second argument is that the fulfilled prophecies of Scripture are evidence of the existence of God. I hope to eventually present evidence of this fulfillment of the prophecies concerning Israel, Ammon, Moab, Philistia, Tyre, Sidon, Egypt, and Seir. However, I am currently going through the long and arduous process of double checking my sources. Let me then begin with just an outline of the prophecies concerning Israel and their possible fulfillments. Any information you can provide in regards to these prophecies will be greatly appreciated.The fulfilled prophecies of IsraelA. Israel destroyed and dispersedLev 26:27-39, Isa 1:7-8, Isa 6:9-12, Deut 29:18-28, Eze 6:1-7, 6:11-14, Eze 7, Eze 11:1-13, Eze 12:17-20, Eze 15, Eze 22:13-16, Eze 23, and Eze 33:23-33These prophecies were not fulfilled until after the time of Christ.B. Israel to be preservedIsa 49:8-26, Eze, 6:8-10, Eze 11:14-21This prophecy is fulfilled in that the Jewish people still exist today.C. Israel to be restoredIsa 49:8-26, Eze 20:33-44, Eze 28:25-26, Eze 34:20-31, Eze 36, Eze 37, Eze 39:25-29This prophecy did not begin to be fulfilled until the early 1900’s and is still being fulfilled today.D. Jerusalem to be enlargedJer 31:38-40, Zech 14:10This prophecy was fulfilled during the early 1900’s in the exact order predicted.The area around the tower of Hananeel was built up first then the Gate of the Corner or the Joffa Gate followed by the development of the hill of Gareb up to the area of Goah and the valley of the dead bodies. Then the city grew with the development of the area where the ashes from the temple sacrifice used to be thrown out. The fields were developed next from northeast of the valley of dead bodies to the brook Kidron and all the way down to the Horse Gate.Again, this is just a preliminary report on the direction in which my study has proceeded. I will present more information as often as possible and will put a priority on any responses which you may have to my posts.Thanks for the challenge,w_fortenberry

PaulK,Thank you for the correction. You pointed out that the Bible did not state that the areas of the city would be built up in any specific order. This is correct. I should have noticed this earlier. However, this error on my part does not negate that the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:38-40 has been fulfilled exactly as predicted in the Bible.You also made mention of the Lost Tribes as being part of this passage, yet I have been unable to find mention of them within these chapters. In fact, I have not found any mention of "the Lost Tribes" anywhere in Scripture. Could you please inform us of whom you are referring to, why you refer to them as "the Lost Tribes," and what relevence they have to this particular prophecy?

Rei,You claimed, In reference to the prophecies of Jeremiah 30 and 31, the Bible states, "in the latter days ye shall consider it. (Jeremiah 30:24)" Your statement, then, is confirmation of this prophecy that the Bible would still be commonly known in the latter days.Besides this, if I were to write in my diary and predict that my great, great, great grandkids will restore my house, then their restoration of my house would be fulfillment of that prediction regardless of whether or not they read my diary; for in predicting that my house will be restored, I am also predicting that it will remain. In predicting that my descendents will restore it, I am also predicting that I will have descendents at the time of its restoration. Thus my prediction would not be a self-fulfilling prediction. In the same way, we cannot claim that the biblical prophecies I mentioned are self-fulfilling, for they rest on the prophetic claim of the continuation of the Jewish people.

I came across another very important fulfillment of prophecy while researching for the thread on the lineage of Jesus. Here is an excerpt from that thread in which I show that the Old Testament predicted the year in which Christ would die.

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...That time can be found in Daniel 9:25-26. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: The weeks mentioned here in Daniel refer to the Jewish sabbatical arrangement of years: seven weeks equals 49 years, and 62 weeks equals 434 years. Adding 49 to 434, we find that Daniel prophesied that Messiah would be cut off 483 years after the command was given to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. According to Nehemiah 2:1-8, the command to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes or 450 BC. Now if we count 483 years after 450 BC, we arrive at AD 33. This is the date given in the Old Testament for the Messiah being cut off. It is the due time to which Paul refers in his epistles. And it is the year in which Jesus Christ died on the cross: not for Himself, but as a ransom for all, dying for the ungodly.

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PaulK,Thanks for the quick response. You say that the "lost Tribes" refers to those who are of any tribe other than Judah or Benjamin. You also claim that the prophecies of Jeremiah 30 and 31 are not fulfilled because those of the "Lost Tribes" have not returned. Does that mean that you believe all modern day Israelis to be descendents of either Judah or Benjamin?

That is very interresting. If these tribes are truly lost to history, then is it possible that they could have returned without our knowing that they are the "Lost Tribes"?