|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,915 Year: 4,172/9,624 Month: 1,043/974 Week: 2/368 Day: 2/11 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Clearly this does not address the points I raised. Indeed, it does not even acknowledge the fact that the quoted material misrepresents Ezekiel. There is no destruction of trees in Ezekiel 17.
There is no serious attempt to show that the prophecies were intended to refer to the present day - rather than the end of the Babylonian Exile. The figure of "nearly two millenia" does not appear in Ezekiel 36. Ezekiel 26 is the well-known failed prophecy against Tyre. It refers to Nebuchadnezzar's attack - in the time of Ezekiel - not the modern day. Chapter 29 predicts devastation on Egypt - and also that Nebuchadnezzar will loot the land, since he failed to gain from the siege of Tyre. Why assume that these are meant to be separate and unrelated events. many centuries apart ? The more so, since the last few verses of Chapter 30 (20:26) predict a scattering of the Egyptians at the hands of the Babylonians - as is predicted in 29:12 The prophecy against "Mount Seir" in chapter 35 refers to vengeance for past events. Obviously Muslims are not to blame ! This reading just makes God look hopelessly incompetent. Why take revenge on modern people for the acts of nations destroyed long ago ? The more so, since whenever people are named we see ancient names. Nebuchadnezzar is supposed to defeat Tyre and Egypt. Egypt is ruled by the Pharoah. There are references to Assyria and Ammon and Moab. The only reason for assuming that any of this refers to the present day, is because it hasn't happened.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Which nations is that supposed to refer to ?
quote: There's a big problem with your claim - which you would know if you investigated the history. It didn't take me long to discover that the Edomites were conquered and absorbed into the Jewish population in the 2nd Century BC. In the 1st Century BC, one of the descendants of those Judaised Edomites became King - Herod the Great. So how can a prophecy against Edom be taken as a prophecy against modern Palestinians ? The descendants of the Edomites are more likely to be counted as Jews !
quote: Or in other words, as I said:
The only reason for assuming that any of this refers to the present day, is because it hasn't happened.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Add to the other criticisms the fact that the prophecies are directed against nations for things that they have done - not things that they will do.
So in your view it seems that the prophet: a) Didn't know when the offences would occur (and wrongly believed them to be in the past) b) Didn't know when the vengeance would be enacted (and wrongly believed it to be in the near future). c) Didn't know who the prophecy was against (see Message 5 above) d) Added erroneous details to the prophecy. Or perhaps the prophecy really did mean past offences (real or not), really did mean the peoples of the prophet's own time, really did mean that the vengeance was coming in the near future and the added details really are part of the prophecy. Why attribute problems with your interpretations to errors in the Bible ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
The interesting thing is that he's arguing that the prophet - and therefore the Bible - got it badly wrong on several counts.
Clearly he thinks that his own opinions are more reliable. A real inerrantist would call that hubris and blasphemy.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: It certainly ISN'T obvious that any of Ezekiel's prophecies are intended to refer to events of our time or later. All the clues in the text point to something far closer than Ezekiels own time. That's why you are asserting that those clues are wrong.
quote: The OT prophets generally referred to other returns. Your favourite found only in Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse likely WASN'T said by Jesus (neither Mark nor Matthew make any mention of it) and DIDN'T happen in the predicted timescale (Luke 21:32). It's not that I am ignoring facts. It is that I don't ignore facts that you don't like.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
So Buz, as a demonstration of the fruits of your status as an "expert" on Biblical prophecy you have not only created a new thread - rather than address my points in the Lebanon thread - you are refusing to address many of my points in this thread, too. Really you should have the honesty to admit that you don't really know or understand this stuff.
For a further demonstration consider this:
quote: The obvious questions to ask are" Is the prophecy a vision, and is the description compatible with missiles ? For Ezekiel 39 the answer is a clear NO on both points. In Ezekiel 39 the prophet claims to be repeating words that God has sent him - words not a vision. And the verses which mention bows and arrows are:
3 "I will strike your bow from your left hand and dash down your arrows from your right hand.
9 "Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons and burn them, both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, and for seven years they will make fires of them.
Neither sounds really like a modern missile (and certainly not an aircraft-launched missile like the Sidewinder ICANT showed !). But they do sound awfully like real bows and arrows ! A bow would be held in the left hand and an arrow in he right - even a handheld launcher requires both hands. Ancient bows and arrows would burn easily and safely. Burning a missile is inadvisable - and an empty launcher is not likely to burn well !
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Sometimes it seems as if I'm the only person here who actually reads the Bible. The prophecies in question are NOT accounts of visions. They are supposedly God's words sent directly to Ezekiel.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Firstly I am saying that YOU are making excuses without bothering about what the Bible actually says. As to this particular prophecy I would say that the fact that it talks about ancient weapons makes it rather likely that it is intended to be about ancient times when those weapons were actually in use.
quote: It is only those who insist that those prophecies must refer to our times that need to insist on such a reading. Those people insist that their beliefs dictate the meaning of the Bible.
quote: Which only confirms the suspect nature of such a reading. An addition to the text that does not even work for four of the feasts is hardly to be relied on.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: We don't NEED this thread revived at all. And we certainly don't need to ignore the details.
quote: This "evidence" has already been dealt with. It is inaccurate to describe the Palestinains as "the modern people of Ancient Edom". The truth is that the reference to Edom strongly indicates that the prophecy refers to the people of ancient Edom.
quote: As is well known Ezekiel lived in the time of the Babylonian captivity. Ancient events still fit (even if prophecy is unreliable - as is also well known Ezekiel's prophecy against Tyre failed).
quote: Ezekiel 38 also appears to refer firmly to ancient times.
quote: This sort of claim is nothing new. Btu again, Ezekiel 39 appears to be clearly referring to a return from the Babylonian Captivity and ancient times.
quote: And still nothing that clearly indicates that Ezekiel meant modern times.
quote: There is no prophecy for cashless money systems. There is no prophecy of TV. As I demonstrated in an earlier thread Daniel refers to the latter days of the Hellenistic Kingdoms (Daniel 8 20:23) - not modern times at all. Revelation 16 is not about climate change. Nor does Daniel 2 refer to racial mixing. The Bible doesn't show the picture that your master wants us to see.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: The real facts speak against you. The real facts show that you are ignoring the discussion that has already taken place - even in this thread ! Your tactics are just one of the clues pointing to your real "master".
quote: It is not debateable that the weapons described in the prophecies are ancient, not modern. It is not debatable that the words are claimed to be God's, not the prophet's. These "details" ARE pertinent and are not debatable - and you wished to ignore them.
quote: Israel and Judah. After all, accusing them of laying claim to their own state would be a bit silly. (Although I will grant that you already assume that God is a complete idiot).
quote: It seems to be referring to the fall of Jerusalem. Certainly it is an event that has already occurred at the time of writing since is is one of the reasons God is planning to destroy them. The NIV translates the phrase as "the time their punishment reached its climax" The Amplified Bible states"when they were suffering their final punishment [the Babylonian conquest]" The 21st Century KJV uses:"in the time that their iniquity had an end.,." Nice try at taking a phrase out of context, but you really need to remember that I know to check all your Bible references because fo your many errors and misrepresentations.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: No, I don't. I only need to see that that is what the text implies. If the accusation happened to be false it would not hurt my case. Here is Ezekiel 35:10-11 (NASB)
10" Because you have said, 'These two nations and these two lands will be mine, and we will possess them,' although the LORD was there, 11 therefore as I live," declares the Lord GOD, "I will deal with you according to your anger and according to your envy which you showed because of your hatred against them; so I will make Myself known among them when I judge you.
Firstly it has already been established that it refers to the ancient Edomites, so we can rule out your "interpretation". Ezekiel still speaks of Israel and Judah (eg Ezekiel 4) so we cannot rule Israel out on the grounds that it had been destroyed at the time. Israel and Judah then are the obvious candidates. Which other kingdoms would Ezekiel associate with God so strongly ?
quote: Why would I have to do that ? Prophecies frequently fail.
quote: Why would I have to do that ?
quote: No, I don't. You are assuming that prophecies cannot fail. I don't make that - obviously wrong - assumption,
quote: No, it isn't. The fact that you try to twist the wording of the Bible to fit modern times is only evidence of your rejection of the Bible.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: So lets look at Ezekiel 35 again to see how far we have to go to find something you disagree with:
quote: Oh right. Verse 1. You don't like to admit that the prophecy is supposedly delivered as words direct from God. That way you can blame the prophet for the differences in the text. Oh, and you think that delivering the message to Ezekiel is a big mistake, too. And that's just verse 1....
quote: Mount Seir is the border between Judah and ancient Edom. It seems to be on the Eastern side of the Jordan, in Jordanian territory. Oh wait a minute, you think that it somehow refers to the West Bank Palestinians. Why exactly would God choose a landmark that is not even in the West Bank to refer to the West Bank Palestinians ?
quote: There doesn't seem to be anywhere important to devastate in the region now. If we take it to include all of ancient Edom, it includes parts of Egypt and Israel as well as Jordan.So you think that God is going to punish the Palestinians by killing Israeli settlers in the Negev while leaving the Palestinian territories untouched ? Oh I think I forsee another retreat by Buzsaw, defeated by the Bible yet again
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: In other words you are suggesting that God said things that were not true.
quote: So God is also very BAD at writing things in a way that the readers would sort-of-understand. Using a cloud as a simile hardly indicates an airborne force, references to bows and arrows are not good descriptions of rocket launchers. Also an airlift of horses is a pretty odd idea. Finally you are now suggesting that the events will happen at some unspecified future time - after horses reenter common military use.
quote: OF course you aren't worried about it. Just as you aren't worried that Ezekiel 35 is about ancient Edom or that the return from exile in Ezekiel almost certainly refers to the Babylonian exile. (You say that God wanted the ancient Jews to understand the prophecies - obviously they would consider a prophecy of a return from exile as predicting their return from their current exile, unless there was something to tell them otherwise - and there isn't). But that's because you don't care about what the Bible says - only about what you want it to say.
quote: There isn't an "emerging world government". So THAT isn't corroborating evidence for your position.The Bible neither predicts a "world wide monetary ysstem of marks and numbers" nor is there evidence that such a system will be implemented in the forseeable future. There is no evidence in "weather phenomena" either. Claims of "moral decline" are hard to judge, especially given signs of moral improvement in other areas. It is interesting that you juxtapose claims of apostasy from "Biblical principles" with a claim that the Gospel has spread worldwide. Of course, given your attitude it is quite possible that you would see a Gospel of love and peace as apostasy. But otherwise there seems to be something of a contradiction. On the other hand the American Right does seem to be in a thorough moral decline and your perversion of Ezekiel 35 in the name of hate and murder would seem to fit both a moral decline and apostasy.
quote: I have my own hypothesis which fits the facts much better. Regardless Ezekiel 35 is certainly not about modern times, and therefore there is no good reason for you to include it at all.
quote:As I have proven - and you know that I have proven it - the Book of Daniel puts the End Times in the Hellenistic period, before Christianity let alone Islam had arisen. And Daniel's "abomination" was to be set up for only a short time. quote: You don't need to remind ME. I know it and avoid that error. Unlike you.
quote: No, it's not what you've been saying at all. It confirms what I've been saying. The prophecy is directed against ancient Edom (which included Mount Seir) and not against modern Palestinians (whose territory does NOT include Mount Seir as I pointed out).
quote: Since you are using the same sources I did, it isn't surprising that your information agrees with my case.
quote: I have done so repeatedly. And you didn't even miss it.
quote: Other Canaanite peoples, the Philistines, settlers who moved in during the Roman period (especially after the Jews were kicked out after the Bar Kochba revolt) or other people who moved in and out of the area in all the invasions and wars. There's nothing tying them specifically to the Edomites. The fact that they aren't Jews is evidence against much of a connection, too.
quote: There is no such prediction. Only a statement that the Edomites would be punished because they HAD coveted two Kingdoms (ie. IN THE PAST even to Ezekiel). Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: I'm not ignoring it. You just don't have anything of significance. Of course YOU have ignored the evidence that the Palestinians cannot be linked specifically to the Edomites. For which you never produced any evidence of any signfiicance either.
quote: By which you mean you only want to spout your bullshit at those gullible enough to believe it. The fact is that you cannot support your assertion that any of these are occurring. You can't even find your "global cashless mark/number monetary system" in the BIble, let alone reality.
quote: I argued that the references to devastating territory within the borders of ancient Edom but outside the borders of Palestinian-held territory indicated that the prophecy was not directed at the Palestinians. And in case you haven't noticed Palestine includes the Gaza strip as well as the West Bank. You think that Gaza is far from where the Philistines lived ?
quote: Philistia overlaps with Palestinian territory, while Edom does not. Moab is no further away than Edom, just the other side of the Dead Sea. And I also take into account the history of the Edomites and of the region, which you ignore.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: And you have produced no significant evidence to support your claim that they are Edomites.
quote: False. Gaza is part of ancient Philistia - and of the modern Palestinian state, such as it is.
quote: You have shown no evidence for this. Nor have you addressed the evidence against it that I have produced.
quote: The ancient Edomites are. Ezekiel 35 is addressed to them, telling them that they will be punished for having done so.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024