Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

Clearly this does not address the points I raised. Indeed, it does not even acknowledge the fact that the quoted material misrepresents Ezekiel. There is no destruction of trees in Ezekiel 17.There is no serious attempt to show that the prophecies were intended to refer to the present day - rather than the end of the Babylonian Exile. The figure of "nearly two millenia" does not appear in Ezekiel 36.Ezekiel 26 is the well-known failed prophecy against Tyre. It refers to Nebuchadnezzar's attack - in the time of Ezekiel - not the modern day. Chapter 29 predicts devastation on Egypt - and also that Nebuchadnezzar will loot the land, since he failed to gain from the siege of Tyre. Why assume that these are meant to be separate and unrelated events. many centuries apart ? The more so, since the last few verses of Chapter 30 (20:26) predict a scattering of the Egyptians at the hands of the Babylonians - as is predicted in 29:12The prophecy against "Mount Seir" in chapter 35 refers to vengeance for past events. Obviously Muslims are not to blame !This reading just makes God look hopelessly incompetent. Why take revenge on modern people for the acts of nations destroyed long ago ? The more so, since whenever people are named we see ancient names. Nebuchadnezzar is supposed to defeat Tyre and Egypt. Egypt is ruled by the Pharoah. There are references to Assyria and Ammon and Moab.The only reason for assuming that any of this refers to the present day, is because it hasn't happened.

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However if you work back from the prophecies of chapter 39 the fact remains that all of these nations mentioned have never risen to the status that they had before their fall way back then.

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Which nations is that supposed to refer to ?

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The prophecy of Edom and the region in chapter 35 is more directly relative to what is being observed in our time. This, to my knowledge, is the first time in history that these descendants of Esau and Ishmael, the Edomite/Moabic/Ammonite people who we refer to as Palestinians have laid claim to two nations which would be Edom and Israel.

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There's a big problem with your claim - which you would know if you investigated the history. It didn't take me long to discover that the Edomites were conquered and absorbed into the Jewish population in the 2nd Century BC. In the 1st Century BC, one of the descendants of those Judaised Edomites became King - Herod the Great.So how can a prophecy against Edom be taken as a prophecy against modern Palestinians ? The descendants of the Edomites are more likely to be counted as Jews !

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In nearly all of the messianic prophecies including the latter ones of Ezekiel, Jehovah states that this regathering of Israel to their land will be permanent, indicating clearly that the fulfillment has not been historical.

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Or in other words, as I said:

Add to the other criticisms the fact that the prophecies are directed against nations for things that they have done - not things that they will do.So in your view it seems that the prophet:a) Didn't know when the offences would occur (and wrongly believed them to be in the past)b) Didn't know when the vengeance would be enacted (and wrongly believed it to be in the near future).c) Didn't know who the prophecy was against (see Message 5 above)d) Added erroneous details to the prophecy.Or perhaps the prophecy really did mean past offences (real or not), really did mean the peoples of the prophet's own time, really did mean that the vengeance was coming in the near future and the added details really are part of the prophecy.Why attribute problems with your interpretations to errors in the Bible ?

The interesting thing is that he's arguing that the prophet - and therefore the Bible - got it badly wrong on several counts.Clearly he thinks that his own opinions are more reliable.A real inerrantist would call that hubris and blasphemy.

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1. Prophecy can be good or bad and if the texts are about contemporary or past events they are historical and not prophetic.

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The events prophesied in the latter Ezekiel chapters are clearly prophetic of future events, some of which we have observed.

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It certainly ISN'T obvious that any of Ezekiel's prophecies are intended to refer to events of our time or later. All the clues in the text point to something far closer than Ezekiels own time. That's why you are asserting that those clues are wrong.

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2. Obviously you choose to ignore the obvious relative to the restoration of Israel as prophesied by OT prophets and Jesus himself. That's your prerogative and I'm not wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.

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The OT prophets generally referred to other returns. Your favourite found only in Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse likely WASN'T said by Jesus (neither Mark nor Matthew make any mention of it) and DIDN'T happen in the predicted timescale (Luke 21:32).It's not that I am ignoring facts. It is that I don't ignore facts that you don't like.

So Buz, as a demonstration of the fruits of your status as an "expert" on Biblical prophecy you have not only created a new thread - rather than address my points in the Lebanon thread - you are refusing to address many of my points in this thread, too. Really you should have the honesty to admit that you don't really know or understand this stuff.For a further demonstration consider this:

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...if perhaps the prophet saw one fire with the missle visible it would indeed be as some advanced version of bow and arrow weaponry.

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The obvious questions to ask are" Is the prophecy a vision, and is the description compatible with missiles ?For Ezekiel 39 the answer is a clear NO on both points. In Ezekiel 39 the prophet claims to be repeating words that God has sent him - words not a vision.And the verses which mention bows and arrows are: Neither sounds really like a modern missile (and certainly not an aircraft-launched missile like the Sidewinder ICANT showed !). But they do sound awfully like real bows and arrows ! A bow would be held in the left hand and an arrow in he right - even a handheld launcher requires both hands. Ancient bows and arrows would burn easily and safely. Burning a missile is inadvisable - and an empty launcher is not likely to burn well !

Sometimes it seems as if I'm the only person here who actually reads the Bible. The prophecies in question are NOT accounts of visions. They are supposedly God's words sent directly to Ezekiel.

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So because He uses semantics that don't agree with what you would consider adequate for the time they specify, it invalidates them?

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Firstly I am saying that YOU are making excuses without bothering about what the Bible actually says.As to this particular prophecy I would say that the fact that it talks about ancient weapons makes it rather likely that it is intended to be about ancient times when those weapons were actually in use.

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Nowhere in the bible does it talk about tanks or rockets, but many can and have agreed that a great amount of the prophecies spoken of in the bible have yet to occur, so can be concluded they will therefore, take place in a time in the future, most likely utilizing more than just bows and arrows.

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It is only those who insist that those prophecies must refer to our times that need to insist on such a reading. Those people insist that their beliefs dictate the meaning of the Bible.

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If you study the Feasts in Leviticus, you can easily identify the meaning behind the feast to be a forecast of things to come and some of which have taken place. such as the Feast of firstfruits, the feast of Atonement and the Feast of weeks. There are yet at least 4 feast yet to come fruition.

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Which only confirms the suspect nature of such a reading. An addition to the text that does not even work for four of the feasts is hardly to be relied on.

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While people are questioning debatable things like weaponry, etc we need to come back to this topic, set aside the jewelers magnification loop and view the whole painting from a distance in order to appreciate the master's work.

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We don't NEED this thread revived at all. And we certainly don't need to ignore the details.

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The following are just a few evidences that come to mind. There are many more besides these which could be cited.

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1. The modern people of the land of Ancient Edom, the Palestinians are claiming two nations, their own and Israel. Israel is not on their maps; not even in the schools. Ezekiel 35

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This "evidence" has already been dealt with. It is inaccurate to describe the Palestinains as "the modern people of Ancient Edom". The truth is that the reference to Edom strongly indicates that the prophecy refers to the people of ancient Edom.

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2. After 19 centuries of desolation and global exile, Jews are back in the nation of Israel. Ezekiel 37 (corroborated by numerous other prophets as well as Jesus)

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As is well known Ezekiel lived in the time of the Babylonian captivity. Ancient events still fit (even if prophecy is unreliable - as is also well known Ezekiel's prophecy against Tyre failed).

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3. Nations of the world are gathering to the Middle East where the focus of tension and turmoil is centered. Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 14, Joel etc.

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Ezekiel 38 also appears to refer firmly to ancient times.

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4. The stage for Armageddon is set with the nations prophesied staged to oppose Israel and other nations than these supporting Israel Ezekiel 38, 39

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This sort of claim is nothing new. Btu again, Ezekiel 39 appears to be clearly referring to a return from the Babylonian Captivity and ancient times.

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5. The modern cities of Israel are unwilled. Ezekiel 38

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And still nothing that clearly indicates that Ezekiel meant modern times.

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The above all corroborated by prophecies of cashless monetary systems, TV (ability to see one spot from all nations) Revelation 11, 13, 18, etc. explosion of knowledge, Dan 11, climate change, Rev 16, etc, mixing of races, Dan 2,

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There is no prophecy for cashless money systems.There is no prophecy of TV.As I demonstrated in an earlier thread Daniel refers to the latter days of the Hellenistic Kingdoms (Daniel 8 20:23) - not modern times at all.Revelation 16 is not about climate change.Nor does Daniel 2 refer to racial mixing.The Bible doesn't show the picture that your master wants us to see.

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"We?" Speak for yourself. Obviously you have a vested ideological interest in squelching evidence to the credibility of the Biblical record.

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The real facts speak against you. The real facts show that you are ignoring the discussion that has already taken place - even in this thread ! Your tactics are just one of the clues pointing to your real "master".

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Details are OK so long as the thread doesn't get hung up on debatable details, unduly undermining pertinent points.

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It is not debateable that the weapons described in the prophecies are ancient, not modern. It is not debatable that the words are claimed to be God's, not the prophet's. These "details" ARE pertinent and are not debatable - and you wished to ignore them.

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1. What two nations was Ancient Edom laying claim to in their day?

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Israel and Judah. After all, accusing them of laying claim to their own state would be a bit silly. (Although I will grant that you already assume that God is a complete idiot).

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2. Relative to the time of the fulfillment of this prophecy why does the prophet state, "in the time of the iniqity of the end?" Ezekiel 35:5

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It seems to be referring to the fall of Jerusalem. Certainly it is an event that has already occurred at the time of writing since is is one of the reasons God is planning to destroy them.The NIV translates the phrase as "the time their punishment reached its climax"The Amplified Bible states
"when they were suffering their final punishment [the Babylonian conquest]"The 21st Century KJV uses:
"in the time that their iniquity had an end.,."Nice try at taking a phrase out of context, but you really need to remember that I know to check all your Bible references because fo your many errors and misrepresentations.

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You need to document that Ancient Edom was claiming Israel and Judah belonged to them and that this was a time when Israel was coming out of the nations back to their own land after being scattered to the nations.

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No, I don't. I only need to see that that is what the text implies. If the accusation happened to be false it would not hurt my case.Here is Ezekiel 35:10-11 (NASB) Firstly it has already been established that it refers to the ancient Edomites, so we can rule out your "interpretation". Ezekiel still speaks of Israel and Judah (eg Ezekiel 4) so we cannot rule Israel out on the grounds that it had been destroyed at the time. Israel and Judah then are the obvious candidates. Which other kingdoms would Ezekiel associate with God so strongly ?

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You also need to document that this was a time when all of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 invaded Israel.

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Why would I have to do that ? Prophecies frequently fail.

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Then you need to document that messiah came and destroyed those invading nations.

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Why would I have to do that ?

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You need to document all of the above before you can alledge that these prophecies were spoken to be fulfilled in ancient days.

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No, I don't. You are assuming that prophecies cannot fail. I don't make that - obviously wrong - assumption,

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These nations cited have already vowed to drive Israel into the sea and take their nation and the city of Jerusalem from them so regardless of whether all has been fulfilled, the evidence is there with Israel reborn and the enemies poised showing that the prophecy is relative to modern times.

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No, it isn't. The fact that you try to twist the wording of the Bible to fit modern times is only evidence of your rejection of the Bible.

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I don't intend to debate about it as it's not the topic here. Back to topic; have you read Ezekiel, chapter 35 through chapter 39? I believe if you read them with an open mind you will see that the latter times of this age are emerging upon the planet.

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So lets look at Ezekiel 35 again to see how far we have to go to find something you disagree with:

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1 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me saying,

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Oh right. Verse 1. You don't like to admit that the prophecy is supposedly delivered as words direct from God. That way you can blame the prophet for the differences in the text. Oh, and you think that delivering the message to Ezekiel is a big mistake, too.And that's just verse 1....

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2 "Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir, and prophesy against it

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Mount Seir is the border between Judah and ancient Edom. It seems to be on the Eastern side of the Jordan, in Jordanian territory. Oh wait a minute, you think that it somehow refers to the West Bank Palestinians. Why exactly would God choose a landmark that is not even in the West Bank to refer to the West Bank Palestinians ?

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3 and say to it, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am against you, Mount Seir,
And I will stretch out My hand against you
And make you a desolation and a waste.
4 "I will lay waste your cities
And you will become a desolation.
Then you will know that I am the LORD.

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There doesn't seem to be anywhere important to devastate in the region now. If we take it to include all of ancient Edom, it includes parts of Egypt and Israel as well as Jordan.
So you think that God is going to punish the Palestinians by killing Israeli settlers in the Negev while leaving the Palestinian territories untouched ?Oh I think I forsee another retreat by Buzsaw, defeated by the Bible yet again

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perhaps if God spoke to the ancients in terms of modern warfare as we know it they would have no idea of what was prophesied. Perhaps God wanted to have the message proclaimed in terms which the world would understand. Up until modern times nobody would know what explosive weaponry was.

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In other words you are suggesting that God said things that were not true.

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Perhaps also by the time this Armageddon event happens horses will be the means of invasion. This is highly likely. Ezekiel 38 says the invasion will be like a cloud covering the land. This may possibly be indicative of an airlift of troops and horses with rocket launchers which launch rockets, i.e. arrows.

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So God is also very BAD at writing things in a way that the readers would sort-of-understand. Using a cloud as a simile hardly indicates an airborne force, references to bows and arrows are not good descriptions of rocket launchers. Also an airlift of horses is a pretty odd idea. Finally you are now suggesting that the events will happen at some unspecified future time - after horses reenter common military use.

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I don't know, Paul, but given all of the evidence that this invasion looks very do-able with the nations (especially the phenomenal event of the regathering and reinstatement of the nation of Israel) all in place as the prophecy states, I'm not going to be too worried by the horse/bow/arrow problem.

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OF course you aren't worried about it. Just as you aren't worried that Ezekiel 35 is about ancient Edom or that the return from exile in Ezekiel almost certainly refers to the Babylonian exile. (You say that God wanted the ancient Jews to understand the prophecies - obviously they would consider a prophecy of a return from exile as predicting their return from their current exile, unless there was something to tell them otherwise - and there isn't). But that's because you don't care about what the Bible says - only about what you want it to say.

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One should also consider the corroborating modern wonders such as the emerging world government, world monetary system of marks and numbers, weather phenomena, moral decline, apostasy from Biblical principles, global expansion of the gospel of Jesus as he prophesied and much more, all of which enforce the OT prophecies relative to the return of Israel after dispersion and messianic kingdom of Jehovah.

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There isn't an "emerging world government". So THAT isn't corroborating evidence for your position.
The Bible neither predicts a "world wide monetary ysstem of marks and numbers" nor is there evidence that such a system will be implemented in the forseeable future.
There is no evidence in "weather phenomena" either.
Claims of "moral decline" are hard to judge, especially given signs of moral improvement in other areas.
It is interesting that you juxtapose claims of apostasy from "Biblical principles" with a claim that the Gospel has spread worldwide. Of course, given your attitude it is quite possible that you would see a Gospel of love and peace as apostasy. But otherwise there seems to be something of a contradiction.On the other hand the American Right does seem to be in a thorough moral decline and your perversion of Ezekiel 35 in the name of hate and murder would seem to fit both a moral decline and apostasy.

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. The reason I chose the Ezekiel chapters cited here in this thread is that they have the most significant sequence of events regarding the reemergence of Israel which has always been claimed by the prophets as the messianic nation to host the world Zionist kingdom on mount Zion.

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I have my own hypothesis which fits the facts much better. Regardless Ezekiel 35 is certainly not about modern times, and therefore there is no good reason for you to include it at all.

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Furthermore, the prophet Daniel as well as the NT prophet John tell us that the abominable antichrist phenomena will stand at the holy place of Jehovah which is undeniably, Mt Zion/the temple mount where the Islamic Dome of the Rock stands today.

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As I have proven - and you know that I have proven it - the Book of Daniel puts the End Times in the Hellenistic period, before Christianity let alone Islam had arisen. And Daniel's "abomination" was to be set up for only a short time.

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OK here's my answer to your problem: As I continually try to remind, you will never get a handle on the prophecies or any doctrine in scripture by cherry picking isolated scriptures to fit your preconceived notions. You must apply all applicable scripture in order to come up with the truth.

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You don't need to remind ME. I know it and avoid that error. Unlike you.

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All you need do is read the whole chapter 35 here which you cite. Now when you get to the last verse of this chapter, verse 15, you have your answer. "....so will I do unto you: you shall be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Edom, even all of it; and they shall know that I am Jehovah."

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Isn't this what I've been saying; that the modern Palestinians are largely the descendents of Edom? Well, here Edom is implicated along with Mt Seir. I see no problem in that. After all, thousands of years have passed since the prophecy and some things are not exactly as they were back then, but we see these enemies of Israel East and south of Israel claiming Israel as theirs just as the prophet of Jehovah for told millenniums ago.

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No, it's not what you've been saying at all. It confirms what I've been saying. The prophecy is directed against ancient Edom (which included Mount Seir) and not against modern Palestinians (whose territory does NOT include Mount Seir as I pointed out).

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BTW, Mt Seir is considered as part of Edom according to Wikipedia:

Mount Seir (Hebrew: -”; Har Seir) formed the south-east border of Edom and Judah, it may also echo the older historical border of Egypt and Canaan.[1] It was the mountainous region allotted to the descendants of Esau, the Edomites. Mount Seir is specifically noted as the place that Esau made his home (Genesis 36:8; Joshua 24:4).

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Since you are using the same sources I did, it isn't surprising that your information agrees with my case.

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Unless I missed it, nobody has refuted my claim that the Palestinians are largely the ancient Edomites.

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I have done so repeatedly. And you didn't even miss it.

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I believe Edom is pretty much desolate today as the prophecy states and the remnants of their descendents are the Palestinians. If they are not descended form Edom, who are they descended from??

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Other Canaanite peoples, the Philistines, settlers who moved in during the Roman period (especially after the Jews were kicked out after the Bar Kochba revolt) or other people who moved in and out of the area in all the invasions and wars. There's nothing tying them specifically to the Edomites. The fact that they aren't Jews is evidence against much of a connection, too.

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Wherever Edomites/Palestinians are, Edom will become desolate. It has been partly fulfilled in the southeast. It will be completed. The Palestinians claim two nations, their's and Israel, just as the prophet so accurately DIVINELY prophesied

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There is no such prediction. Only a statement that the Edomites would be punished because they HAD coveted two Kingdoms (ie. IN THE PAST even to Ezekiel). Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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As for the rest of your message, so long as you choose to ignore my cited evidences that the prophecy was not about the Babylonian era..

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I'm not ignoring it. You just don't have anything of significance.Of course YOU have ignored the evidence that the Palestinians cannot be linked specifically to the Edomites. For which you never produced any evidence of any signfiicance either.

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... so long as you're not aware enough to realize that global world body/government, global cashless mark/number monetary systems and that the emergence of the prophesied messianic nation of Israel are not emerging, there's no point in wasting our time butting heads (as is usual trying to reason with you.)

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By which you mean you only want to spout your bullshit at those gullible enough to believe it. The fact is that you cannot support your assertion that any of these are occurring. You can't even find your "global cashless mark/number monetary system" in the BIble, let alone reality.

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Regarding Edom, first you argue that Edom was in the wrong area to be regarded as ancestors of Palestinians. Now you're trying to claim that the Palestinians include the Philistines and other farther removed nations which are much farther from modern Palestinians than Edom.

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I argued that the references to devastating territory within the borders of ancient Edom but outside the borders of Palestinian-held territory indicated that the prophecy was not directed at the Palestinians.And in case you haven't noticed Palestine includes the Gaza strip as well as the West Bank. You think that Gaza is far from where the Philistines lived ?

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You reject Edom, adjacent/bordering and suggest instead, Palestinians and others, far removed.

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Philistia overlaps with Palestinian territory, while Edom does not. Moab is no further away than Edom, just the other side of the Dead Sea. And I also take into account the history of the Edomites and of the region, which you ignore.

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We've been debating about who the modern Palestinians descended from.

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And you have produced no significant evidence to support your claim that they are Edomites.

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They are nowhere near Ancient Philistia,

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False. Gaza is part of ancient Philistia - and of the modern Palestinian state, such as it is.

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...but more closely related with Edom.

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You have shown no evidence for this. Nor have you addressed the evidence against it that I have produced.

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They are the ones cited in the prophecies as claiming two nations and the holy place/mount , including Judea, Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.

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The ancient Edomites are. Ezekiel 35 is addressed to them, telling them that they will be punished for having done so.