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Author | Topic: Have complex human-made things been designed? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:The observations would seem to confirm this statement. quote:It seems they were. All observation points to human intelligence designing those objects. quote:Obviously that's true. quote:Actually, none have been evolved in the sense you are thinking of. quote:With or without an intelligent input? With an anitelligent input, obviously. That is why they are called designed. The mechanism of how they were actually designed is irrelevant. But they did infact come about by directed intelligent cause. Not an undirected natural cause, like people assert that is evolution. quote:But they are able to design. And natural processes are not. That's the point. quote:Yes, with a constant input form an intelligent source. Not an undirected natural source. Again, that is the point. quote:But they did design other thing. quote:But they did eventually design XP and Vista, and soon, Windows 7. Nature has never been observed to come close to that. quote:Actually it was the intelligence of the programmers who built Windows XP. You are going of track here. The availability and profit-gain of a program has nothing to do with human ability to make one. If the market is not ready for some piece of software, it's not going to be made. But that doesn't mean it can't be made. On the other hand, there were no observations of nature ever doing anything as complex as Windows XP. quote:Again, this has nothing to do with intelligence's abillity to actualy make the program. This has more to do with profits. Is the program profitable or not. If it is, it's going to be released, if not, than it's not going to be released. This has nothing to do with undirected natural processes making complex objects like Windows XP. quote:Yes, through an effor of a lot of intelligent sources, i.e. people. quote:Again, yes, and the next invention is the improvemnet of the previous one by an intelligent input. Not an unintelligent one. quote:Depends on what you mean by "much more complex". quote:Depends on how you define evolved, and designed. If by evolved you mean undirected nautral cause, than no, you are obviously wrong. If by evolved you mean sligh intelligent inouts over time, that yes, you are right. But int that case, that is also the definition of a designed object. Regardless of the mechanism that brought it about. quote:Exactly, seems, they were all designed. The only thing we don't know is by which mechanism and how long did it take. But they were designed.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:But in the case of market, the product's lifespan is guided by an intelligence of consumers. In nature, no intelligence is guiding natural selection. quote:It doesnt' since natural selection is not guided by an intelligence. And if it is not, it can't perform any better than blind chance. It's useless.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:That's a great way to get there I agree. The only problem is that natural selection is not working that way. I mean, it is, but for fitness. It selects this way for fitness. But fitness is not correlated with biological functions. Therefore natural selection is not selecting single nucleotides and building new biological functions, it's is selecting for fitness. Therefore natural selection is still useless for evolving new biological functions.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:That is what proteins do in our bodies to keep us alive. For an example ATP synthase makes energy for the cell in the form of adenosine triphosphate. quote:Here you go: quote:Fitness - Wikipedia(biology) quote:It means that just becasue natural selection will select for the most fit, it doesn't mean it will in the same time be selecting to form new biological functions in the population. Simply because it is not doing that, it's selecting for most fit. And most fit have nothing to do with new biological functions.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:New biological functions do not evolve. But slightly modified functions do push the fitness up. That would still not make natural selection select for the evolution of new biological functions, because the fit ones that do get selected are not selected in a way to produce new biological functions. Natural selection only searches those who are more fit than others, without trying to select for evolution of new functions.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:Never. Because no new information is added. quote:It will. But it won't lead to evolution of new molecular machines like ATP synthase. It's very simple. Natural selection selects for fitness, not for molecular machines that don't yet exist.
quote:That is because form better fitness you do not need new information. But for new functions you do. And natural selection can't get you new information.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:Yes, they can. quote:Sometimes. Less than you think, but sometimes they will. quote:Information in general is knowledge about something. quote:It can if an intelligence increases it.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:Nobodies. Therefore natural processes do not create new information. quote:Not really. Since if I create a new poem, I increased my knowledge. I created new information. quote:Nope. There is no such thing.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:It would be the same kind of process you see when people create new technology. It would be an intelligent process. quote:The said intelligence that would have created life on Earth would be th eone that increased the information content.
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Smooth Operator Member (Idle past 5142 days) Posts: 630 Joined: |
quote:Yes, this would be an increase in information. An intelligent action can produce that effect. quote:The intelligence that designed the universe had increased the knowledge. The whole of universe is representing this creation of information.
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