I Don't Understand the Israel/Palestinian Problem

Dumb title, most likely, since probably no one does. But anyway, has anyone been able to make sense of recent events.

• Hamas and Islamic Jihad agree to a cease fire while peace efforts attempt to move forward. There are a couple minor bombings, but nothing major, and peace talks proceed slowly forward.
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• Then there's a major bombing attack on a bus killing 14 and injuring around a hundred, and both Hamas and Islamic Jihad take credit.
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• Israel retaliates by murdering a Hamas officer and his two body guards.
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• Hamas and Islamic Jihad say that Israel's actions have invalidated the cease fire.

How can this make sense, even to Palestinians, that Israel broke the cease fire? How can it make sense, even to Palestinians, to equate the murder of a Hamas officer to the murder of civilians on a bus?I'm not sure what Hamas's and Islamic Jihad's goals are, but it seems readily apparent that they don't want peace. Every time peace gets uncomfortably close they bomb something and any progress towards peace halts. I wish the Palestinians and the Israelis would simply decide to keep moving forward on peace no matter what.Just my simplistic view of things.--Percy

What were the backslides? Here's a rough timeline of recent events that includes the roundups and murders of Palestinians you mention. It isn't complete, just tries to hit the significant events, but feel free to fill in any meaningful holes you find. But I think this is largely correct, and it doesn't seem to reveal any pattern that would lead one to your conclusion: What are the missing Sharon actions that indicate he doesn't want peace?--Percy

Hi, Agent! It wouldn't surprise me if Sharon was a terrorist. So was Menachem Begun. But that's not the topic of the thread. What's your source for this? The Hague is in the Netherlands, not Belgium. This article from CNN says it was actually a ruling by The Hague that called the Belgium court's position into question. And Sharon's role was that he was the Israeli defense minister at the time.The topic of the thread, the ambiguous title notwithstanding, is how Hamas and Islamic Jihad justify their position that Israel broke the cease fire. The reason being advanced by Holmes isn't that it's because Sharon used to be a terrorist, but that he is still behaving like a terrorist, and that it provoked Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad into the bus bombing. But I haven't seen any evidence of this.To me Hamas's and Islamic Jihad's position seems irrational, and it seems incredible to me that even Palestinians could buy it. But maybe I'm not in possession of all the facts. So fill me in and relieve my ignorance.--Percy

Hi Holmes!I can tell you don't like Sharon. I have no strong feelings about him either way, but I don't think you've made your case that his actions were such as to justify the bus bombing.But my original point was, to put it more generally, why Hamas and Islamic Jihad have any significant credibility with the Palestinians whose interests they supposedly have at heart. Their actions seem unlikely in the extreme to bring about peace. Whether you blame Israel or the Palestinians for the slow progress toward peace, extreme terrorist actions like the bus bombing can only be interpreted as overt attempts to destroy any progress towards peace, a peace that would bring great benefits to the Palestinian people, including possibly their own nation. In other words, to me it seems like Hamas and Islamic Jihad are working against the best interests of the Palestinian people, and I don't understand why the Palestinians as a people support these organizations.--Percy

Hi Holmes!I can't respond in as much detail, not because I don't believe I could master the detail, but because I believe mastering the detail does not lead to any insights. My short list of news items came from a search for "Israel killed" at the CNN site, by the way, and I stopped at the bottom of a page. It was only intended to show the random nature of events and the impossibility, to my mind, of assigning blame for the senseless violence.This news just in (at least for me, since I just got up), today Israeli forces killed two Hamas leaders and their body guards in a hellicopter missle attack. Israel stated that any member of Hamas is now a legitimate military target.If I have a bias it is that purposefully targetting civilians and purposefully targetting groups that purposefully target civilians are not the same thing. If I understand your position it is that Sharon knows that innocent Palestinian civilians will get killed in attacks on Hamas leaders, and that killing these leaders is almost a ruse for killing Palestinian civilians, and if true then he is as dastardly as Hamas, but I don't think the evidence exists for this position. After all, Hamas and Islamic Jihad freely admit they target civilians. The evidence that Sharon's true goal is the same is nowhere near so unequivocal. I think the most that can be said is that the Israeli military is in the main unconcerned about colateral casualties, but this is of longstanding and persisted whether Sharon was in government or not.But I think the same question can be raised about Israelis that I asked about Palestinians. It is in Israel's best interests to be at peace internally with the Palestinians and externally with her neighbors. One important strategy in achieving this goal is to remove as much as possible the hopelessness of the Palestinian situation. Israel's path to achieving this goal is difficult to discern, however, given the violence of some groups on the other side and given the extreme paranoia stemming from their PLO adversary's one time goal of pushing Israel into the sea. And I think those must remain the goals of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, since their activity level picks up both when Israel is too active militarily and, more importantly, when peace seems too likely.But I think Israel is going to have to learn to be more circumstpect in her reaction to terrorist attacks. The disgust the world feels for the terrorism of Hamas and Islamic Jihad will increase each time Israel responds in a measured way, and it should eventually increase to the point where even Palestinians feel it, and so clearly not reacting to terrorism in ways that increase the despair of the Palestinian people is in Israel's best interest. Why they don't seem to see this is as mysterious to me as the Palestinians tolerating Hamas and Islamic Jihad.--Percy

Who says the sixties are dead? Groovy, man! --Percy

Hi Holmes,I've already stated my position. Continuing to post replies isn't going to draw me into a response because I'm not really interested in being declared at message after message.--Percy

Please post as much as you like. I think this is an important topic that deserves discussion. I assumed you were replying to my old posts because you were trying to draw a response, but I think I've already stated my position: I deplore the actions on both sides.--Percy