I Don't Understand the Israel/Palestinian Problem

Well first of all your timeline is incorrect, or at least not fully fleshed out.In between the cease fire and the bus bombing there were several roundups of palestinians by Israelis, at least one if not two killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces, and at least two backslides on promises made by Israelis to Abbas which helped secure the cease fire in the first place (not to mention being part of the road map).Hamas and Jihad made it very clear in every action they took, including the bus bombing, that it was a retaliation for an aggressive, usually deadly action taken by Israel.The reason that the murder of a Hamas "officer" and his bodyguards is equatable to the murder of other innocent civilians (of course not in body count) is that that "officer" as you put it was a POLITICAL officer.There is a huge difference between political and military wings of those organizations. To make matters even more insane is that this "officer" was actually one of the moderates likely to continue negotiations. Check with Reuters if you don't believe me.What I don't get is how any rational person, with adequate access to full news media resources cannot see that Arial Sharon is a madman bent (at the very least) on the murder of all of his old rivals, if not the total oppression of the Palestinian people.This guy was bad news for decades. His whole modus operandi is making odioys and violent "pre-emptive" attacks on Palestinians... killing many innocents... then blaming them for any retaliations.Hey, if the palestinians get pricked do they not bleed? If they are attacked do they not revenge? The story is as old as that area of the world.Unfortunately in this case the cycle of violence has a major proponent and that is Sharon. Sure Hamas and Jihad are a bunch of a-holes, but Sharon is the true obstacle to peace here as he does more to recruit members of those organization from Palestinian moderates than any of their actions could.That said, I agree with you. I am sick of all the death. I wish Hamas and Jihad would realize the value in not blowing up other people. Hell if they are willing to die for their cause, why not be martyrs WITHOUT innocent blood on their hands? Build a monument to all the innocent Palestinians Sharon keeps killing every time he gets a ceasefire or a nondeclared cessation of violence from Hamas and Jihad. Actually it is every time that there has not been an attack by Palestinians, that Sharon runs his troops in to target assassinate or roundup Palestinians. Just check the bodycount figures since the beginning of the intifada. You will see gaps and then a sudden attack by Israel (pre-emptive or delivering justice) followed by renewed violence by terrorist groups.Sharon is the master of upsetting (and murdering) Palestinians for his own agenda.By the way the Palestinians have agreed to move peace forward no matter what. It is Sharon who has announced that peace cannot move forward without a cessation of violence and then attacks Palestinians and claims that his violence doesn't count. Hell it was one of his buddies that announced after their reluctant acceptance of the current Roadmap that the only reason they signed on is because it would be impossible for the Palestinians to succeed on their part.Am I getting some news source no one else is able to get? I mainly go to Reuters, and AP.Or how about some histories of Sharon? Has no one read about the attrocities this man has commited? I totally agree that it doesn't absolve any terrorist actions by Hamas and Jihad, but it should certainly make one rethink who the real problem is in this equation.------------------
holmes

See now this I just don't get. You ask me what were the backslides? Are you kidding? And I am not saying this sarcastically.Whether you or I consider them serious backslides--- or serious enough to warrant an end to the peace process--- it was all over the news what THEY considered backslides. And by THEY I do not just mean the terrorist organizations. I mean the Palestinians. I might add that it also included some within the US administration.The backslides were:
1) continuing to build the wall between Israel and Palestine, especially in a way that protects the very lands in dispute, including settlements that were supposed to be getting torn down.2) after making a big show of tearing down a handful of the smallest illegal Israeli settlements, Sharon allowed and encouraged the building of even MORE new settlements. This was talked about with pride by far right Israelis and shame from moderate and liberal Israelis. It was castigated by everyone else in the world watching the events unfold.3) you mention Sharon releases 339 prisoners, plus one leader. Did you not read anything else about this where you got that data? It was far less than were supposed to be released. Sharon has rounded up thousands of Palestinians. In fact the number of children (under 13) who have been illegally detained and kept indefinitely without ability to contact a lawyer or family, and only recently began getting needed food and medicine number in the high 100's. While I agree with Bush's assessment that real prisoners with blood on their hands should not be released, clearly the number released did not reflect that policy. Again, it was well publicized that even moderate Palestinians were upset with this "release" which was essentially a slap in the face to all those who used it to broker a peace.Your timeline, while perhaps accurate in date and number, again fails to flesh out the meaning of events with other facts. In addition, I believe it is missing a few points as well, unfortunately right now is one of the worst times for me to be wandering around and fact checking your list. For the sake of argument at this time I will accept your timeline.First of all let me point out you start your list with a palestinian terrorist act. I'm not sure why you started there when the process of tit for tat has been going on for well over a year now. In fact it started right after Sharon rose to power on the pretext of quelling Palestinian riots he engineered, and shot some people dead.The only appropriate point for our discussion at this time is the announcement of the cease fire.June 25 - Hamas and Islamic Jihad announce cease-fire. [unmentioned: this was a ceasefire brokered by Abbas on conditions that Israel stop targeted killings and adhere to the roadmap which involved dismantling settlements, ending construction of the wall, and release of political prisoners]June 30 - Members of the Palestinian group Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades killed an Israeli constuction worker. [unmentioned: This incident was not related to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and was eventually decided not to have been from Al Aqsa proper either. It was some lunatic splinter faction within Al Aqsa and denounced by pretty much everyone including Al Aqsa, ultimately written off as a side event which should not hinder either side from continued progress.]July 2 - Israeli troops kill Mahmoud Ahmad Shawar, a local head of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, in a gun battle. [unmentioned: This is a move by the Israeli government, not some lunatic fringe splinter faction. It was Sharon making another "pre-emptive" strike which is notorious for upsetting Palestinians, particularly the ones most likely to respond with hostility. It is the modus operandi he has used throughout his entire life.]July 3 - Israel releases Colonel Suleiman Abu Mutlaq, a senior Palestinian security official, from jail. [unmentioned: this is not a terrorist but a security official who may or may not have had links to terrorists. Too bad Israel is unable to release all of the completely innocent security officials it has KILLED over the last couple of years, for no apparent reason and which has prevented moderate Palestinian forces from exerting any control over extremists]August 6 - Israel frees 339 Palestinian prisoners.[unmentioned: this move was late in coming and well under the number expected by the Roadmap. While I guess anyone should be glad that people were freed, to think this was a great gesture is to ignore the facts. There are thousands more, including many hundreds of children, which were not released, adding insult to injury. This was nothing more than a slap in the face to Hamas and Jihad, and a slitting of Abbas's throat while sending him back to deal with those factions.]August 8 - 4 Palestinians and 1 Israeli soldier killed in gun battle. [unmentioned: this is the first retaliation by either Hamas or Jihad since the cease fire. It comes after Sharon has killed a Palestinian resistance leader, and slid backward on settlements, the wall, and the release of prisoners. I am not saying this justifies anything, but this is the reason why people got upset and did what they did. IF Sharon had stuck with the Roadmap, and especially if he had not gone on more sweeps and killed a Palestinian during the CEASE FIRE, this attack would not have likely taken place.]August 12 - Palestinian suicide bomber kills 2 Israelis. [unmentioned: I believe there were more Israeli incursions before this, but either way it is still an extension of the first attack above.]August 14 - Israel kills Mohammed Seder, local head of Islamic Jihad's armed wing.
August 19 - Palestinian bomber on bus kills 20 Israelis.[unmentioned: is this not obviously a return to the cycle of violence?]August 21 - Israel kills Ismail Abu Shanab, a Hamas political operative, and two body guards. [unmentioned: hmmmm, first "officer" now "operative"? The guys was a politician. He was nonmilitary. That means CIVILIAN. ONLY ISRAEL regards this man as a terrorist, even international intelligence agencies have come out saying this killing was unwarranted and only likely to provoke a hostile response, In addition the man was a moderate. This means Sharon decided to have Israeli forces murder a man likely to keep Hamas and Jihad at a negotiating table instead of on the streets with bombs, while directly taunting them to do just that. It was at this point that Hamas and Jihad could not pretend they were in some sort of ceasefire at all. Isreal had moved from killing militants to citizens.]I am not sure how any of these facts escaped a person who calls himself percipient.I am beginning to believe you are a Sharon apologist/sympathizer. Anyone that could answer Agent Uranium's* post listing just ONE of Sharon's many atrocities by saying he was only reponsible because he was defense minister is clearly not looking for the truth. He was tossed out of the position as well as other positions by angering Isaelis themselves with his Nazi-like brutality against Palestinians. Make no mistake the man was in charge. If you don't like the events Agent Uranium* listed just go to a history of Sharon, there are more to be found.You do know it was a Jewish extremist following Sharon's diatribes that killed Rabin, right? Not a Palestinian? When it looked like peace was at hand Sharon accused Rabin of treason (for being willing to give Palestinians some land) and all but said "he must be killed." His implied orders were followed. he did not regret this particular Jew being killed. In fact he has not even considered it a terrorist act.You really do not need me to tell you all of this. It is right out there for anyone looking.And by the way, while the UN court is in the Netherlands, it is Belgium that has (up until a month ago) had strict laws to detain and surrender to that court, anyone involved with genocide and warcrimes. That is why Sharon kept away from that country. He would have been caught and tried for his crimes.I'm not saying that Hamas and Jihad are right. I'm only saying Sharon is just as great a terrorist as the heads of those organizations are and he is commited to keeping peace from happening to the same degree--- if not more because he has the real muscle--- than their most rightwing leaders.Since you did a timeline for this, why not try making one from shortly before Sharon rose to power. Start with Barak, Clinton, and Arafat doing a three stooges number while trying to get through a door at a peace conference. At that point there was little to no violence going on at all.Make sure to get the real details this time too, as in how each action affected the abilities and likelihood of every organization involved to reach peace.Even Barak has said that Sharon engineered everything from then till now. We are witnessing his handiwork.*indicates that name has been edited for correction... initial stupidity on my part.
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holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 08-24-2003]

Yes I meant you Agent U. My apologies to both you and Crashfrog for the mixup. I've edited the post to avoid confusion for future readers.What's weird is that this is not the first time this has happened. For some reason when I want to reference someone I find I have accidentally written Crashfrog. Normally I catch it, this time I didn't. I have absolutely no idea why my subconscious has such a fixation that I write that name. Maybe its because I have absolutely no idea what it means, or maybe its just been happening since crash put up that colorful avatar and so my mind latches on it first. Either way I'll try to watch my posts for this error in the future.------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 08-24-2003]

Thanks truthlover for slapping me around a bit. It is true that I get a little heated on this subject, but the reason is that the information is out there and has been for some time. And worse still it just keeps coming, yet no one seems to be doing anything about this guy.Seriously it is almost exactly like watching Hitler coming to power in the 30's and victimizing jews and no one around seems to give a rats ass, or seem oblivious to the news coming out of that country.The question percipient asked is how could palestinians buy claims by Hamas and Jihad that the murder of a politician was what broke the ceasefire when attacks by Hamas and Jihad were going on already.As I tried to say in my response, and maybe it wasn't clear because of my anger... the answer to percipient's question is out there in the news every day.I don't believe that Sharon's backsliding warranted attacks. I think Hamas and Jihad leaders are proving themselves totally inept for repeatedly stepping into the trap Sharon places for them.Regardless of whether you or I or percipient believe these reasons are worth resorting to violence, they ARE the reasons that violent action is being taken. In the mindset of these people it is cause enough.Furthermore it is known that Israeli actions are going to have these results. They do not bring security for anyone. They simply propagate violence.That is why the US is Sharon's only ally at this point. Even Blair is critical of Sharon's policies. And I should add that the US as well chastised Israel for the attack which lead to the end of the ceasefire,It is tit for tat which keeps this whole show going. Whenever there has been a break in violence Sharon has either target assassinated individuals (with resultant collateral damage) or run troops in to bulldoze communities or arrest many innocents in roundups which pushes Palestinians (including moderates) back to the edge, and the extremists right on over.The timeframe percipient gave was stripped of its meaning, which was reported right along with the events (except maybe on Fox).I am actually taken aback that people voice opinions on this subject yet have no clear understanding of the psychology and cultures in play here, especially as they are discussed as each event unfolds.I cannot give you exact dates of backslides as they are without dates. During the timeframe mentioned, it was well publicized that while settlements were being torn down, others were being built with the encouragement of Sharon. This wasn't one date, it was and still is going on. It was also very well publicized that moderate Palestinians, including Abbas were outraged that Sharon was not going to release prisoners as he had promised.And how could anyone not have heard about the wall being built to divide Israel from Palestine? Bush himself went on air to criticize this option as not being helpful. The well publicized fact that it protected the very settlements that were supposed to be dismantled should be pretty big clues as to what was happening, which is eerily reminiscent of Hitler's wall around the Jewish ghetto.My question is if you have not heard of these things, how have you not heard of these things? What news sources do you use? As stated I usually use Reuters, AP, and sometimes CNN. Unfortunately I get a daily fix of Fox as well, but for real fair and balanced reporting Reuters and AP can't be beat.It was percipient's dismissal of Sharon's involvement with a massacre which made me feel he was an apologist. The list of atrocities that Sharon has commited have been catalogued by Israelis as well as Palestinians, and number more than the two percy dismissed (using Sharon's pathetic excuse).I encourage everyone to read some histories on the area. I had no idea what was what 3-4 years ago. I began doing research for a documentary on Israel and was floored by what I discovered, and it was right as Sharon was climbing back into power. To watch him restart his machine of death sickens me... which is why I get upset when other people can't see what's happening.Anyway, keep an eye on Reuters and AP for some good coverage as it happens.Right now you'll see that Sharon has just murdered four more leaders. And the government says it is going to keep killing people until the Palestinian government starts arresting people.Can you see anything wrong with this strategy?------------------
holmes

Thanks for the polite response, I probably didn't deserve it.I hate Sharon. However, I do not believe any of his actions JUSTIFIED the bus bombing. If I wasn't clear before, let me make it clear now, I did not feel that the bus bombing was justified. Neither were almost every single action Hamas or Jihad have undertaken.The flip side of this is that the bus bombing did not justify the murder of a civilian, who on top of being innocent of any violent actions, was a moderate likely to promote peaceful resolutions.But feeling something was not justified is vastly different from understanding why it happened and the thought process that went into it. This more general question is a good one given their history of failing the Palestinian people, but the answer should be obvious.Let's start by getting some things straight. Hamas and Jihad are not the same organizations. They are also not the only organizations. There are numerous factions and splinter factions with varying goals within the Palestinian region.The best way of thinking about this is if you've ever seen Monty Python's Life of Brian. The myriad Jewish organizations fighting each other while trying to fight the Roman occupation is just about dead on, with the only exception that Israel (unlike Rome) does nothing but destroy Palestinian infrastructure.They are underground. No Palestinian votes for who leads all of these organizations, nor do they get a say in what those organizations do. Much like in Life of Brian I am sure many Palestinians shake their heads at what these organizations do, even if they happen to be in another organization making its own errors.If it weren't so awful it might be comical.I agree with you, and probably many Palestinians, in recognizing the waste and actual harm their activities cause.Then again...No matter how much the ordinary Palestinian may not like what one or another organization does, they might feel at least it is one of their guys getting back at the occupier.This is why the answer should be pretty obvious. With all of our history from Jesus living under the occupation of Rome, to the colonists fighting the occupation of British forces, to most of Europe (including German Jews) fighting the occupation of Nazi forces... the activity and mindset of those under occupation are nearly the same.When you get THEM, even if it wasn't going to get you any closer to real victory, at least it was a victory of some kind. They lost their battle for freedom and are left crushed, demoralized, and under full occupation (as Sharon has reminded them). What else is there to hope for? For some it is just about getting revenge where they can, because ultimately there is no hope.I can only imagine if it was one of your kids starving in an Israeli prison, or blown to bits in a targeted assassination you wouldn't be thinking quite so clearly.That's why it is going to take cooler heads to step back and out of that world. The start of which is to step outside of the cycle of violence. It is also going to take treating moderate Palestinians, separate from the extremists (those organizations which are bent on the total destruction of Israel).Sharon and Bush's strategy has been to lump them all together. For example talking about Hamas and Jihad and Palestinians as if they are one and the same entity. Unfortunately it pushes all Palestinians into one camp, and that is the camp of terrorists. Coming from Sharon--- who has stated that all Palestinians are terrorists--- this should come as no surprise, but from Bush it is very very disappointing.However this is another topic. Getting back to the one at hand, I do agree that almost all of these organizations (particularly their military wings) are as bad as the current Israeli government in finding solutions to their problems.They are not seeking any way of extracting Palestinians from their plight, and have chosen... well... martyrdom. This is one of the ghastliest concepts ever created by man. Unfortunately thanks to the spread of monotheism it is all over the place, especially on both sides of this particular fight.It seems to me that they should realize that they could always be a martyr without killing. After all that is what Jesus became, or perhaps the more contemporary victories of Ghandi could set an example of how to win without resorting to suicide attacks, getting killed in the process still leading to salvation.But this is preaching to the choir I suspect. So let me take you in a different direction, and perhaps you will see why I have a problem in the way you phrased your questions.Why does the Zionist far right of Israel (talking about political and terrorist groups) as well as Sharon's government, continue to have any credibility with Israelis and citizens of the US?All of their actions have been unlikely in the extreme to bring about peace. Whether you blame Israelis or Palestinians for the slow progress toward peace, targeted assassinations and mass roundups of innocent civilians, especially after every cessation of violence on the part of major Palestinian organizations can only be interpreted as overt attempts to destroy any progress toward peace, a peace that would bring great benefits to the Israeli people (especially a secure and independent Israel).Unfortunately that question does not exactly swing the same way back to the Palestinians. Sharon and the Zionist far right have said they never want to see a Palestinian state. Sharon at most says he could see it in theory, but not as a reality. So the promise that Palestinians might have peace and a country of their own--- if they allow themselves to keep getting stepped on--- is not very real. It will take a change in the Israeli government to bring this about.I'm sure you get my drift though. Why are you so incredulous about the Palestinians when the exact same behavior is being exhibited by the Israelis (and the US) as well?I think this is where the difference is. You see one side as naive or duped, while I see them both getting used. Sharon is a Zionist. He calls himself that. He is the exact counterpart to the radical Islamic terrorists fronting Hamas and Jihad. Their methods and goals are similar.And if you want a tally, right now Sharon's organization has killed 2-3 times as many innocent people as the Islamic extremist organizations have. If you say that Sharon doesn't target civilians, my question is what's the difference if he knows he's going to and kils 2-3 times as many?At least the Palestinians have a real excuse of living under an occupation which has left demoralized, for why they might lash out in anger first, and not necessarily recognize which organization is actually working for their best interest.------------------
holmes

Actually I misread the tone of percy's first post, which is what set me off. The second one made me realize what he was getting and and I believe we are of a similar mind that the Palestinian organizations--- supposedly for Palestinian best interests--- are doing things which aren't actually going to help and the Palestinian people shouldn't trust them so much.Where we differ is that I hold this feeling for the Isaelis and its supporters in the US as well, and question percy holding Palestinians to greater accountability.IMHO Everyone's getting used by two groups of extremists (Islamic and Zionist), and until moderates of both sides are in charge, peace will not be here for some time. Well maybe I didn't make things clear. The assassinations Sharon conducts during cessations of hostilities on the part of Palestinian groups did not happen during the cease fire this time (except after the bus bombing).However he did engage in more roundups. In addition, and perhaps more important, were the growth in settlements, the continuation of the wall which is designed to protect illegal settlements (ie it is grabbing land), and refusing to release prisoners. This last act was not just "as good a gesture as we might think" but what was expected of him according to negotiations.Its funny that we can use the word prisoner and so it sounds like something gracious on his part to release them. These are mainly innocent people rounded up for no reason. We're still talking about high 100's of children under 13 being held without access to lawyers, or their parents, and until recently no medicine and improper food. 399 people getting released doesn't even count as a joke.Anyway this was the ultimate slap in the face to extremists and it was obvious something bad was going to come of it.And I think this is where I can draw the picture more clearly. The strategy so far has been to punish all Palestinians until attacks by extremists end. This is a strategy for continuous warfare.It is definitely not halfway, it is what Sharon has always thrived on and ultimately it is the second focus you said you'd take if you were the leader of Israel.If one were actually looking for peace one could easily look to the past. Rabin and Barak were both close. The big hangup was not whether Palestinian extremists would stop attacking (which happened in both cases) but over Israeli extremists not being willing to secede portions of land.This is not to paint Arafat as some hero or something. He blew it with Barak. And this is not to say splinter groups of Hamas or Jihad might not have caused problems later. But the problems would have been different.The key in both situations is that moderates on both sides were moving together to gain a peace. Interestingly enough... just read the histories... Sharon shot down both Barak and Rabin (in the latter case quite literally) and extremists on both sides regained control of the process.Right now there is an organization which represents moderate Palestinian interests. That is the government chosen by the Palestinians. And yes that includes Arafat.However Sharon, well aware that moderate Palestinians want peace, continues to burden the moderate organizations and strengthen the extremists. The result is exactly what we see.His not releasing prisoners, and protecting settlements with wallbuilding angered moderates as well as extremists. If moderates were angered, then extremists much more so. It made the new leader of the moderate government look like a total punk to moderate Palestinians and a traitor to extremists.Very well calculated. Sharon just kept piling on insults and weakening the moderate government until the inevitable happened.Then when it happened Sharon had his excuse to murder a completely innocent person. Even you said it was in retaliation for the bus bombing. How does the murder of innocent people justify the murder of other innocent people? It doesn't. Not in any sane equation toward peace.Murdering a civilian, and now compounding it by killing four more people (even if not civilians) and announcing murders will continue until Abbas does as Israel wants, is clearly manufactured to undercut moderate Palestinians, and strengthen the extremists.If peace was desired Israel would be moving to strengthen moderate organizations and reaching out to moderate Palestinians in general to secure their help in lowering extremism. Killing innocent, moderate Palestinians (and again Sharon has killed twice as many innocents as Islamic extremists have) while telling them to go risk their lives fighting Islamic extremists or the killings will continue is surreal at best.Islamic extremist groups are expected to do insane things, that's why you don't predicate peace with moderates by the total inactivity of the fringe groups. You predicate it on peace with the moderate government.That is why I fault Israeli and US strategy more than Palestinian strategy. Sure Palestinian extremist group strategy is just as goofy as Israel's, but Palestinian government strategy is not. Unfortunately it needs to get a foothold before it can overcome the extremists.To make matters worse there is no one in Israel the moderate Palestinian government can reach out to for peace and strength. The Israeli government is being run by the extremists who have no desire to see a strong Palestinian anything.I realize there is probably some heat in this post (though not directed at you) but hopefully some light as well.------------------
holmes

The problem is that Sharon's administration purposely targets civilians. I have already said that the guy they popped right after the bus bombing was a civilian as were his body guards. About a year ago (a little more or less) they also targeted a well known public figure who was totally just a civilian.At that time the US administration (and one of the first times mind you) publicly rebuked Sharon's actions.There is no question. He targets civilians.The next plank down then is to say that he doesn't always target civilians, while Islamic organizations do. But this is also not true. While it is true that Islamic groups target civilians more often than Sharon's government does, this is more of a logistical necessity, than a preference. One can only assume if they had the helicopters, tanks, and jets that Sharon has at his command they would equally target-assassinate Israeli military leaders.This is where I start losing any empathy for Sharon's strategy. While he does target civilians "less", he does so in a way that ends up killing many many many more civilians than those targeted "groups."The reason? Why not read texts from Sharon himself? He has stated that all Palestinians are terrorists and even where they are not ALL PALESTINIANS MUST BE PUNISHED for each act of terrorism. That is his stated strategy. In addition, his stated strategy--- even from years ago--- has been to kill twice as many Palestinians (innocent or not) while attacking terrorists, as Israelis were killed in a terrorist action. He says this is good and he should seem more crazy to them than the Palestinian terrorists, because it will be the only way to make them understand he means business.Well that almost sounds reasonable when you think that he only does this in response to an attack, so he is only revenging himself on innocent Palestinians. The problem is that he doesn't wait for attacks. Remember this is the guy that started the whole idea of "pre-emptive" strikes.So he goes in guns blazing on people that haven't commited crimes yet, killing innocent people in the process. And he considers this justified.When the horrified public he just attacked without provocation responds by revenging, he then goes into overkill revenge mode. This is incorrect. While Sharon was general he was well known for targeting purely civilian areas. It is equally well known, to anyone that knows that fact, that Israeli pilots often dumped their bombs rather than dropping them as ordered by Sharon.This is not to say they always disobey. Sometimes atrocities are commited by the army all on its own. Witness the use of human shields by Israeli soldiers during their raid into Jenin. Something we labelled shortly before as something only terrorists would do. I really scratched my head when Bush and co didn't tear Sharon's head off for having allowed that, or not punishing the soldiers afterward.But Sharon's use of the military to make being a Palestinian hell is less than incidental.There is a reason he has been kicked out of every position he has been in (until now). It was his absolute and unchanging policy of brutalizing Palestinian civilians, that even Israeli citizens and many in the Israeli military could not stomach. The only thing that has ever put this guy back in power is the rise of extremist factional power within the Israeli government. Again, if you look into it you will see it his rise to power has always been preceeded by Palestinian extremism stoked by Israeli radicals to scare the israeli populace. It's easy enough to find. Just look what started this last round of violence.Barak and Arafat were on the edge of some kind of resolution. Extremists on both sides, Sharon leading the Zionist cause, pulled it apart. He intentionally manufactured Palestinian rage (by kicking Palestinians out of a holy spot so that he could visit it) to further scare the Israeli public and push them to accept more extremist positions. Barak was eventually undercut and Sharon installed.The slaughter soon followed.You don't even have to look to Palestinians for confirmation of this. Barak has charged this as well as many moderate Israelis. Even Sharon's current top general has criticized some of his orders (suprisingly in public) as being counterproductive and targeting civilians at the expense of actually stopping terrorism.Sharon is a terrorist. He simply is one that has been voted into office because extremists have control right now.But let's say none of the above was known or is even true. Let's just say that everytime he goes after a military target he kills twice as many civilians as Israelis who have been killed. Maybe that suggests Sharon should use suicide bombers to make attacks, as suicide bombers have been more accurate and caused less collateral damage then Sharon's method.Think about that. The palestinian terrorist groups, using less precise hardware than the Israeli military, have caused less collateral damage than the Israeli military. Does this make any sense to you?------------------
holmes

No problem, now maybe you can help me with something. Me and my girlfriend have both been confused and disturbed by the visual of your avatar.What exactly is that a picture of? Is it Biblical or something (like Jesus suffering)?And so as to keep this post on topic I'll add another interesting morsel about the Palestinian/Israeli situation for people to chew on...Deep in the throws of all of this conflict the head of the Palestinian government (a the time) Yaser Arafat was asked if he thought he had made any mistakes along the way. He says he regretted not signing the deal with Barak and so initializing a stronger peace process between the two nations.In the throws of the same conflict, and at a time when crucial Israeli/Palestinian dialogue was trying to be brokered by both the Palestinian and US governments, Sharon was asked nearly the same thing. His response was that he regretted not having ignored US restrictions on military activity and killing Yaser Arafat.Which one of these guys is more likely the terrorist with an agenda of war?------------------
holmes

We can start a new timeline of course.1) Israel assassinates a moderate political figure in response to a terrorist bombing, killing 4 civilians that had absolutely nothing to do with the bombing.2) Israel kills four Hamas military leaders while at a beach. Although they may or may not have been involved in the bombing, we will never know. What we do know is that they were not involved with any terrorist action at the time they were killed. Israel announces it will continue to kill Palestinian leaders (military or not) until there is total demilitarization.3) Palestinian terrorists launch the longest range qassam missiles to date. No damage or casualties. AS PER USUAL no real damage or casualties are inflicted with qassam missile attacks.4) Israel launches missiles into traffic to kill the man behind the qassam rocket attack, the kind of attacks which did not and rarely ever do anything. They miss killing an elderly man and injuring 20 other totally innocent civilians.Here's the latest link... http://reuters.com...Why do Israeli and US citizens have any confidence in Sharon's Zionist government? These incidents have done nothing but pushing the buttons of ordinary Palestinians, undercutting the moderate government (and yes that includes Arafat) while empowering the extremists.Just keep watching the news...Oh yeah, and to the idea that Sharon is simply targeting groups, answer me this, do you think he would launch missiles into a bustling residential Israeli neighborhood to get a few men he knows are on their way to a suicide bombing? No because that would be horrific. It would be as unthinkable as a President bombing certain New York, Chicago, or LA neighborhoods to stop gang violence.What's the difference between Palestinian, Israeli, and US citizens? Nothing, except ordinary Palestinians are treated as they are all in cahoots with the terrorists within their midst (by Israel and the US) or at least as insignificant chaff we can mow through to get the terrorists without fear of repercussion.------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 08-26-2003]{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-27-2003]

Your village's tent? Okay now I've been left in greater confusion, although not as disturbed. I had no idea there were actual village's left in the US, and certainly none that had a communal tent.What is the story with where you live and why is there a tent? I'm assuming this is like a large circus tent?I suddenly have this vision of where you live as some set of medieval mud and thatch dwellings... where do you plug in a computer? It sounds like you have gotten a pretty good inkling of the situation.------------------
holmes

Thanks for the invite, but by October I will be living in Europe somewhere.What you've got going is incredibly intriguing to me. How and why did you get into living this kind of lifestyle? Is it religious based, or as percipient has suggested culturally based?Is there a movement going along with it, or is everyone just kind of falling together to see what happens?Your name and avatar through me way off as to what kind of person you were and the kind of life you lived. Yes, you are much much more interesting than I initially imagined.------------------
holmes

Another qassam rocket was fired at Israel, penetrating even further than the last rocket, but as usual doing absolutely no damage and causing no injuries, much less fatalities.Dore Gold (a Sharon crony) hyped up how horrible this was, yet in every statement said "the Palestinians" rather than "Palestinian terrorists" or "terrorists" or "Hamas" or etc etc etc. The danger he says is with the Palestinians.This is exactly what I am talking about. The Palestinian public is getting blamed and as a consequence punished for every act, rather than just the terrorist groups. And even in pursuing just "those groups" Israel and the US allow things to be done to Palestinians that would be inconceivable to inflict on our own populations.Look for more atrocities around the corner (from both Palestinian extremist groups and the Israeli government).Oh yeah, one other thing to note. Watch the language of Israeli politicians if we ever get another cease-fire in place or at least a period of no violence. You will see them say (as they did with this last cease-fire) that it just means that Palestinians are preparing for more attacks, which makes roundups and assassinations necessary. In this last case it was roundups, in previous lulls over the last couple of years it was both roundups and (more usually) assassinations.What chance do Palestinians have when violence from extremist groups means they must be punished for those acts, and no violence means they must be attacked before more actions have been taken?Any amount of honest research and applied logic to this situation reveals who the real culprits are, and who the real victims are.Culprits: Extremist Islamic groups, Zionist groups (unfortunately running the Israeli government right now), and Xtian groups (unfortunately running the US government right now).Victims: Moderates of every persuasion in that region. One group especially hit hard are the Palestinians who need real resolution of outstanding issues of continued occupation by Israel, and encroachment by Zionist extremist groups.------------------
holmes

So in response to the qassam rocket attack which did not do any damage, as such missiles rarely if ever have, the Israeli government has declared that Palestinians have crossed a "red-line" which means Israel may take whatever action they want.There first order of the day was to fire missiles from a jet at a man belonging to a military wing of Hamas while he was driving a donkey cart. Can anyone say overkill?I certainly can, especially when those missiles also injured three innocent Palestinians including a 4 year old boy who was critically injured.This is a a very notable quote from the Israeli side..."I think that it is clear that the heads of terrorist organizations Hamas and Islamic Jihad cannot feel secure any more on their way to the barber's shop, grocery store or mosque, and also on their way back. These people engage in terror, and therefore they are legitimate targets," deputy Israeli army chief of staff Major-General Gabi Ashkenazi told army radio.The logic of this is nearly transparent. If leaders of Hamas etc etc canot feel safe doing any of these normal everday things, that means no one else on the streets can feel safe either. In fact, as statistics show, innocent Palestinians are more likely going to be killed when leaders are targeted.Undoubtedly this is supposed to motivate Palestinians to crack down on extremist elements.Is this not the exact same terrorist tactics used by Hamas etc etc against the Israelis?Just let me know when it starts getting really obvious who the problem is in this situation, and when the credulity of Palestinians starts making more sense than Israeli and US credulity.------------------
holmes

List keeps going:-Aug 29, 2003- Palestinian gunment kill Jewish settler and wound his wife. Not certain if this is a sanctioned Hamas/Jihad revenge attack, but must assume it is. And of course it will be treated as one.-Aug 30, 2003- Israel shoots missiles into Palestinian area killing two militants linked to rocket "attacks" which are notorious for causing little to no damage or injuries. In the process 9 innocent Palestinians are injured. Moderate Palestinian government officials say this has officially killed the peace process. They had been taking measures, including arrests and destruction of methods to make attacks, but Israel's attacks have undercut their support from moderate and extremist Palestinians making further actions futile.And for those interested in information about why Israel's building the wall was a concern for Palestinians, I just found an excellent article explaining that not only was it designed to grab old Palestinian lands, they were actually grabbing new Palestinian lands, evicting ordinary Palestinians into the street! That last bit was news to me.You will also see in the article that the US government did not feel this was going to be a good idea. If our side doesn't think so, imagine what Palestinian extremists will think, especially as they watch Israelis illegally kicking Palestinians out of their houses to build a wall.Here's the ref:
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holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 08-30-2003]

And the band plays on...Sept 1, 2003- Israel fires missiles into a crowded Palestinian area, killing one militant and wounding 25 (2-3 are miltants, the rest are innocent).Interestingly enough, a devastating bombing occurred in Iraq this week. If we found out more such planners were in a public square, would/should the US fire missiles from apaches or jets into the crowds to get the men?And you do realize that Israel's current policy is summary execution without even a trial? And that includes a death sentence for anyone who just happens to be around him at the time?Just wondering when the obvious becomes obvious.IMHO it is only a willing and practiced ignorance on this subject, or some total inability to get the news (ala truthlover) which allows one to continue saying the actions of Israel are logical or useful for anything other than terrorism against Palestinians.------------------
holmes