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Author Topic:   How does one distinguish faith from delusion?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 171 of 279 (519852)
08-17-2009 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Straggler
08-17-2009 7:15 PM


Re: Evasion - As Expected
Well I read all of her posts and I never saw an answer to your question either.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2009 7:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Straggler, posted 08-18-2009 1:22 PM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 176 of 279 (519862)
08-17-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by kbertsche
08-17-2009 8:52 PM


Re: What Is Subjective Evidence - More Evasion.
I have already mentioned a few specific forms of material, objective evidence in Message 108.
Are you sure that is the correct post. There is no there material,objective evidence.
I sure would love to see some.
historical, textual, psychological, and sociological?
but you don't give any evidence.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by kbertsche, posted 08-17-2009 8:52 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 184 of 279 (519902)
08-18-2009 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Kitsune
08-18-2009 2:45 AM


Re: Experiences
Those questions have very little meaning in of by themselves. They are a list of what I call mumbojumbo.
The only one that has any meaning is the last. I don't know enough about psychology but I would venture to guess that there are measurable effects one feels when they fall in love. I know I have physical reactions to my wife(and I do not mean all sexual). I would love to see some studies on love and falling in love, but I do not think it is highly subjective.
As for the other questions. Why would anyone want to develop a way to test them? According to religious people they are things that are inherent. I do not have to develop a system to test them. This would be like me trying to develop a test to prove or disprove little brown fairies. We cannot test for the existence of things that are just human ideas and mental constructs. Is this any different then developing a test to see if a work of fiction was real?
Your question has no point to those that do not belief in faith. Maybe that is why Straggler does not answer. Maybe he does not see any point. I sure don't.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 2:45 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 10:44 AM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 186 of 279 (519915)
08-18-2009 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Kitsune
08-18-2009 10:44 AM


Re: Experiences
I think your issue is not that I do not accept a philosophical way of looking at things but that I reject your philisophical way of looking at things.
I read your full post, it did not move me in any way. You claim that I am incapable of understanding philosophical arguments. In that you are wrong. I understand many of the arguments. I do not find moat of them very convincing.
Just because a person does not agree does not make them stupid or wrong. You seem to have a problem with my take on things. This does not mean you are correct.
I find empiricism is a very good way to function in life. Empirical data seems to be the basis of what makes me function. I also think everyone functions on empirical data. Your subjective evidence that leads to faith is just how your brain deals with the empirical data you have received through life. The difference between myself and other people is how I deal with that empirical data internally.
I reject that there is anything else besides empirical data and how we as individuals deal with and sort that data internally. We only have five senses, but with those senses different people can have vastly different interpretations of the data coming in. The brain is a very interesting, complex and scary thing.
You may well believe there are other ways of perceiving, but ultimately it is the data coming in from the five senses and how the brain deals with that data. Nothing more. I reject that there is a sixth sense or some sort of spiritual element.
That ma'am is a valid philosophical viewpoint. It may be different than yours but it is no less valid.
We cannot test for the existence of things that are just human ideas and mental constructs.
BTW, I know what epistemology is.
I am an empiricist. I do not believe in intuition and I do not believe that world is a construct of the mind. I do believe people have different perceptions of reality, but ultimately there is a reality.
IMO they are questions which cannot be answered empirically, so there must be other epistemologies we need to employ.
Why must they be answered? Does thinking of an answer make you feel better.
It's interesting that your reaction is to avoid having to do so at all by dismissing the questions themselves.
What does this mean? Do you feel I am ignorant or there is something wrong with me because I find no value in your questions.
I think we're straying from the topic here, which is the difference between faith and delusion.
They are your questions.
I have yet to hear an argument of why faith is different from delusion without people using judgmental statements and subjective evidence. Subjective evidence is completely non-convincing. People have used subjective evidence for Nessy, Bigfoot and ghosts. Why should I think any subjective evidence for faith is any different?
Edited by Theodoric, : Spelling

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 10:44 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 12:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 202 of 279 (519946)
08-18-2009 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Kitsune
08-18-2009 12:50 PM


Re: Experiences
or why thinking about the nature of existence does not appeal to you. Philosophy must be one enormous delusion in your regard.
I can't believe it I am getting condescension from someone that trusts her health to meridians and energy healing. Do you have any objective evidence for those, or is it all just subjective?
Why do you make such a statement about me and philosophy? Philosophy is not a delusion it is an attempt to explain things. There are many philosophical viewpoints and ideas. I am familiar with quite a few of them. You are being a pompous ass and making assumptions about things you know nothing about. I have explored many philosophies in my life. Maybe even more then your highness yourself. How does not accepting them make me any less capable of understanding them?
Still waiting for some tangible way to tell the difference between delusion and faith.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 12:50 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 5:27 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 203 of 279 (519948)
08-18-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Kitsune
08-18-2009 1:46 PM


Re: Evasion - As Expected
I think this is the fourth time I've said here that I think the fact that humans have adopted various forms of spirituality as far back as we can see, points to something real.
Why do you think this?
Is the idea that it was developed to explain the unexplainable hold any credence with you?
You are using faith to explain why there is faith. Seems to be a very disingenuous way to conduce a debate. Can you justify and explain faith without using faith?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 1:46 PM Kitsune has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 210 of 279 (519964)
08-18-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Kitsune
08-18-2009 5:27 PM


Re: Experiences
This didn't sound to me like someone who is interested in philosophy; and since you said you are an empiricist, I deduced that you were uncomfortable with the limits of empiricism in philosophy. If you believe I'm wrong, I suggest you simply say so and give your reasons why.
It is your condescending attitude and vague insults I have a problem with. I have previously explained that I have studied philosophy and feel your philosophical take on the world is not what I agree with.
Message 191
If you are an empiricist, which is one epistemology, then you will consider anything delusional which cannot be proved empirically. Maybe this is why you are so firm about disagreeing with any of the philosophical viewpoints I posited, or why thinking about the nature of existence does not appeal to you. Philosophy must be one enormous delusion in your regard.
Message 185
I have some suggestions which may assist your contributions to this thread. ...Find out what epistemology means and be aware that you are advocating one particular kind.
It's interesting that your reaction is to avoid having to do so at all by dismissing the questions themselves.
Kind of condescending don't you think.
I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that no matter what I say, neither of you will ever be satisfied with the answer.
I have the sneaky suspicion that you won't be satisfied with anything we say.
So there you go.
So why are Straggler and I debating in bad faith when we do not agree with your arguments, but you are so virtuous when you do not agree with ours?
I take your philosophy of life and existence and outright reject it. Now back to Stragglers question.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Kitsune, posted 08-18-2009 5:27 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Kitsune, posted 08-19-2009 4:59 AM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 238 of 279 (520083)
08-19-2009 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Kitsune
08-19-2009 5:07 AM


Re: Evasion - As Expected
Where is your answer?
Stragglers question.
Straggler writes:
What experiences? Dreams? Waking visions? Hearing the "voice of god"? Daydreams? Are all forms of "personal experience" evidence? Or only some? If I close my eyes and envisage the ethereal yellow squirrel is the actual existence of the ethereal yellow squirrel now evidenced?
On what basis do you include or disclude different types of "personal experiences" as evidence? For example RAZD discluded dreams as a form of evidence. But I honestly and genuinely don't see how he could claim that any other form of immaterial "evidence" was demonstrably more reliable or superior. I honestly don't see how any such "evidence" can be known to lead to results that are superior to guessing.
the masterdebator writes:
Linda, if you have answered his question, I do not see it either. All I see is you evading Stragglers repeated request for a specific criteria for subjective evidence.
LindaLou writes:
Please see Message 226.
I just read that post again. I do not see a response to Straggler. As a matter of fact 226 isn't even a response to Straggler. Also, 226 is a brand new post, but you have been claiming for days that you have already responded to Straggler. Is 226 just your reasoning of why you can't answer straggler? I am sorry but you posts tend to get all lost in some sort of attempt at sophisticated deepness, when in reality they are just philosophical mumbojumbo(yup, I said it again) You are, again, explaining your philosophical beliefs, but not dealing with the questions that have been raised about those beliefs. You are not presenting any evidence to back you belief that faith is not delusion, except to say that you do not believe it is. That is all well and good but not much of a basis for a debate. If we all were like this then the debate would be.
It is.
No it isn't
Yes it is.
Is not.
Straggler has asked some specific questions, that you have refused to answer. You have been hung up on your questions,(That people have addressed) and have accused him of not debating fairly. I am tired of hearing of your beliefs. I want to hear your evidence that faith is not delusion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Kitsune, posted 08-19-2009 5:07 AM Kitsune has not replied

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