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Author Topic:   Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 91 of 352 (521837)
08-29-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Michamus
08-29-2009 10:50 AM


Re: Contradiction 2: Birthplace of Jesus
I've done a bit more searching on the phrase "land of jerusalem" and found a few things:
1) There are indeed some modern scholarly uses of the phrase. But these seem to refer either to "land" in the sense of "real estate" or "geography," not in the sense of a territory or region.
2) The El-Amarna letters seem to have a few references to the "land of Jerusalem." There are two in EA 286 and one in EA 287. There is also a reference to the "territory of Jerusalem" in EA 290, mentioning Bet-Ninib as a city in this territory. (This is apparently what you mentioned in Message 83 but with the wrong tablet number and with the older, less preferred translation Bit-Lahmi.)
(The El-Amarna letters are available online here and here)
The El-Amarna letters do seem to use "land of Jerusalem" in the sense of "territory" or "region," supporting your contention. And the Book of Mormon also uses "land of Jerusalem" in a few places, perhaps with a similar connotation of "territory" or "region" (though I'm not fully convinced of this yet).
However, remember that the El Amarna letters were written by Canaanites in the Late Bronze period (14th century BC). The phrase "land of Jerusalem" is not found in Scripture. There is no evidence that it was used in Palestine after the Israelite conquest. So where did Lehi (7 centuries later) or Joseph Smith come up with the phrase "land of Jerusalem?" What did they mean by it? Is there any historical or linguistic connection between Book of Mormon usage and the El Amarna tablets? I'd say any connection is extremely doubtful.
Further, in the passage in question:
quote:
Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers
the phrase used is "Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers", not the "land of Jerusalem." Even if the latter is demonstrated to mean "territory" or "region" in the Book of Mormon, does the former have the same meaning, and how would you establish this? It seems to me that the former has more the sense of "real estate" or "possession."
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Michamus, posted 08-29-2009 10:50 AM Michamus has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 92 of 352 (521859)
08-29-2009 6:15 PM


It is impossible for Christians to accept the BoM, as we have seen. But others may think it worth a look, and if so, take a look at this:
'But behold, the Spirit hath said this much unto me, saying: Cry unto this people, saying - Repent ye, and prepare the way of the Lord, and walk in his paths, which are straight; for behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the Son of God cometh upon the face of the earth. And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.' Book of Alma, 7:9-11
Now take it from a Bible reader, everything in that which is in agreement with the Bible could well have been lifted right out of the so-called King James Version, and everything in it that is not in the 'KJV' is wrong, as far as the Bible is concerned. If one was to do a hatchet job on the Bible's message, it would look exactly like that- or the Qur'an.

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 93 of 352 (521951)
08-30-2009 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Michamus
08-28-2009 9:17 PM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
I'm wondering if I gave up on this contradiction too quickly. I've got some further questions for you:
quote:
Seems you have your names confused. Jacob and Joseph were Nephi's younger brothers, and not the Jacob and Joseph of the OT.
Yes, I agree that I misread the Book of Mormon here. But wasn't Nephi supposedly a descendent of Israel? If so, which Jewish tribe were Nephi and his brothers from?
quote:
Mosiah 29:42 and Alma 4:20 infer that Lehi, and his lineage were operating under the high priesthood, or Melchizedek Priesthood, which is not bound by lineage, but conferred by god.
How is the "Melchizedek priesthood" implied here? (I see no mention of Melchizedek.) How does the Book of Mormon speak of the Nephite priests elsewhere; are they spoken of in relation to Melchizedek or as priests of Israel?
(Note that in the Bible, a priest of Israel must be from the tribe of Levi. A priest of the order of Melchizedek was different and more general, and was not referred to as a priest of Israel.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Michamus, posted 08-28-2009 9:17 PM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Michamus, posted 08-30-2009 9:00 PM kbertsche has replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 94 of 352 (521957)
08-30-2009 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by kbertsche
08-30-2009 7:18 PM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
kbertsche writes:
How is the "Melchizedek priesthood" implied here? How does the Book of Mormon speak of the Nephite priests elsewhere; are they spoken of in relation to Melchizedek or as priests of Israel?
The title of "High Priest" can only be held by one with the "High Priesthood", which is the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. Father Abraham demonstrated the "High" position of Melchizedek when he offered him tithes (Heb 7).
The two scriptural links I provided in Mosiah and Alma sufficiently state that the High Priesthood was being conferred upon each subsequent leader of the Nephites.
kbertsche writes:
Note that in the Bible, a priest of Israel must be from the tribe of Levi. A priest of the order of Melchizedek was different and more general, and was not referred to as a priest of Israel.
You are right, and wrong. You are correct in that a High Priest is not "referred to as a priest of Israel", as Priests of Israel are after the Order of Aaron.
You are also correct in that the capacity of Priest of Israel is birthright to descendants of Levi.
A High Priest (Priest after the order of Melchizedek) is not more general, as they are of the "High Priesthood" or "The Priesthood of God". I would describe them as more "specific" in that they exercise a higher capacity.
Give me a little more time to properly respond your other queries. I seldom have enough time to make a proper post.
I do appreciate your queries in that some of them I have never heard before. I always enjoy a new challenge, and these seem to satisfying that joy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by kbertsche, posted 08-30-2009 7:18 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 6:57 AM Michamus has replied
 Message 98 by kbertsche, posted 08-31-2009 10:55 AM Michamus has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 95 of 352 (521979)
08-31-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Michamus
08-30-2009 9:00 PM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
quote:
The title of "High Priest" can only be held by one with the "High Priesthood", which is the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
So the high priest who condemned Jesus to death was priest after the order of Melchizedek?
Is that the customary attitude to followers of Jesus of priests after the order of Melchizedek?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Michamus, posted 08-30-2009 9:00 PM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Michamus, posted 08-31-2009 8:43 AM ochaye has replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5187 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 96 of 352 (521988)
08-31-2009 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ochaye
08-31-2009 6:57 AM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
Those who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood can become corrupted just as any other man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 6:57 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 9:05 AM Michamus has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 97 of 352 (521990)
08-31-2009 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Michamus
08-31-2009 8:43 AM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
quote:
Those who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood can become corrupted just as any other man.
Only if God can be corrupted. The priest in the order of Melchizedek was defined as incorruptible. That's the whole point of it. There is only one priest in the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek himself was mere pre-figurement of the Messiah, as Judah was, as the red heifer was, as the scapegoat was.
Mormonism simply doesn't have the first clue about theology, it's absurd beyond imagination.
Or doesn't want anyone to have it.

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 Message 96 by Michamus, posted 08-31-2009 8:43 AM Michamus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 11:30 AM ochaye has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2161 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 98 of 352 (521998)
08-31-2009 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Michamus
08-30-2009 9:00 PM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
quote:
The title of "High Priest" can only be held by one with the "High Priesthood", which is the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Are you saying that the meaning of "high priest" in the Book of Mormon is completely different from that in the Bible? Are there any definitions of "high priest" in the Book of Mormon? If so, perhaps "qualifications for High Priest" would constitute another contradiction with the Bible.
In the Bible, the phrase "high priest" or "chief priest" (or sometimes "anointed priest") simply denotes the head of the priesthood. The priesthood of Israel had a high priest, who was also of the priesthood of Israel so must meet all of its qualifications. The first high priest of Israel was Aaron (see Ex 28-29). The phrase "high priest" occurs more than 70 times in the Bible and is apparently always speaking of a high priest of Israel, except in the book of Hebrews.
There are only two priests after the order of Melchizadek ever mentioned in the Bible. The first is Melchizadek himself, and the second is Jesus. Jesus is referred to as a "high priest" and a "great high priest" by the writer to the Hebrews, who also makes clear that Jesus was not a Levitical priest, but a priest after the order of Melchizadek.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 99 of 352 (522002)
08-31-2009 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ochaye
08-27-2009 3:36 PM


Hi, Ochaye.
Ochaye writes:
But does [the Bible] give an indication that there is more to come?
John 10:16 says:
quote:
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
There are others, Jesus says.
Why wouldn't these others also write scriptures?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ochaye, posted 08-27-2009 3:36 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 12:05 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 100 of 352 (522004)
08-31-2009 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ochaye
08-31-2009 9:05 AM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
Hi, Ochaye.
ochaye writes:
The priest in the order of Melchizedek was defined as incorruptible.
Where does this definition appear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 9:05 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 12:04 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 101 of 352 (522009)
08-31-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Blue Jay
08-31-2009 11:30 AM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
Hebrews 5.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 11:30 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 12:08 PM ochaye has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 102 of 352 (522011)
08-31-2009 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Blue Jay
08-31-2009 11:25 AM


Other sheep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 11:25 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2009 12:11 PM ochaye has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 103 of 352 (522012)
08-31-2009 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by kbertsche
08-29-2009 12:57 AM


Re: Contradiction 1: Start of Church
Hi, Kbertsche.
kbertsche writes:
At the time when Mt 16:18 was spoken, had Christ's church begun or not? The Bible says "no" but the Book of Mormon says "yes," a contradiction.
The church of God in the BoM had fallen apart by the time of Christ's ministry:
quote:
And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the *thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.
-3 Nephi 6:14
When they say the "thirtieth year," they mean, "the thirtieth year since the sign of Christ's birth."
Some Lamanites continued to follow the teachings of the Church, and some had the priesthood authority, but the Church itself was decentralized and disorganized. My personal understanding is that the Church is essentially gone by this time.
So, by the time of Jesus's ministry, it is correct that there is no Church.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 12:57 AM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 104 of 352 (522015)
08-31-2009 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ochaye
08-31-2009 12:04 PM


Re: Contradiction 3: Qualifications for Priesthood
Hi, Ochaye.
No where in Hebrews 5 is it said that all priests of the order of Melchizedek are inccoruptible.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 12:04 PM ochaye has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 105 of 352 (522016)
08-31-2009 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ochaye
08-31-2009 12:05 PM


Hi, Ochaye.
ochaye writes:
Other sheep.
I can't help but think that you consider this to be a point somehow, but I'm not sure what, exactly, you think the point is.
You can't expect me to take a two-word post seriously.
Edited by Bluejay, : I didn't preserve his formatting.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ochaye, posted 08-31-2009 12:05 PM ochaye has not replied

  
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