Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?

Hi, Ochaye. Where did James write this?----- And, you're apparently not reading a word I'm writing. Repentance is the way that we acknowledge the righteousness and goodness of Christ:

quote:

---

And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

​

-Alma 22:14

---

One cannot truly repent and become clean of one's sins unless he acknowledges that it is through Christ's Atonement that he is made clean. Mormons believe this. We simply believe that there is a works-based process whereby acknowledgement to Christ is made.-----Here is Paul on the subject of repentance:

quote:

---

10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

​

-2 Corinthians 7:10

---

Repentance leads to salvation, says Paul, just as I have already explained that Mormons believe.----- And I have provided at least two scriptures where Paul champions salvation by works (Philippians 2:12 and 2 Corinthians 7:10). So far, neither you nor KBertsche has answered either one. It appears that, not only is James "rapidly schizoid," but Paul is too, unless, of course, both of them are referring to salvation in the Mormon fashion.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Ochaye.Sorry, didn't see this one. How could (and why would) you do works for His acceptance if you didn't have faith in His existence and power to save you in the first place?

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, KBertsche. And I have been trying to tell you that the two scriptures you quoted are not representative of the entire Bible, therefore, you cannot claim that contradictions to those two statements are contradictions to the entire Bible.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

quote:

---

Maybe it would help if I showed that James 2 doesn't stand alone:

---

It helps to understand your interpretation of the Bible. But of course it doesn't help to eliminate the contradiction between 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32 in the Book of Mormon, and Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5 in the Bible. Even if your interpretations were correct, this contradiction would remain.

quote:

---

Mormons do not, however, believe that salvation is accomplished by the virtue of works alone. Christ's grace is the mechanism by which salvation is granted (that's what Ephesians 2 says), and works are insufficient.
...
So, God made it possible, through the miracle of forgiveness, for us to meet His requirements through our works.

---

This is consistent with 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32, but contradicts Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5.

quote:

---

I have Jesus saying that one must keep the commandments in order to obtain eternal life.
I have Paul telling people to work out their own salvation.
I have someone else (maybe Paul) saying that Jesus gives eternal salvation to the obedient.
I have John saying people will be judged according to their own works.

​

This is the Mormon definition of "salvation by works."

---

Your interpretation sounds very similar to Pelagianism, which Warfield described thus:
(BTW, Pelagius was condemned as a heretic in the 5th century.)Edited by kbertsche, : added Warfield quote re PelagianismEdited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

quote:

---

And I have been trying to tell you that the two scriptures you quoted are not representative of the entire Bible, therefore, you cannot claim that contradictions to those two statements are contradictions to the entire Bible.

---

I don't know why this is so hard to communicate to you, so I will try to lay it out very simply:1) Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5 are in the Bible. (Note: if you think they may be mistranslated in our English Bibles, I'm happy to discuss them with you from the Greek.)2) 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:3 are in the Book of Mormon. They contradict the two passages above.3) Thus we have demonstrated that "the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible" as requested in the OP.QED(Note that the OP did not request "contradictions to the entire Bible," whatever that means. These two biblical passages are representative of biblical teaching on salvation, of course. If they are unique in any way, it is that they are so clear that it is difficult for you to twist their meaning, so you try to marginalize them as anomalies.)Edited by kbertsche, : added last two sentences

quote:

---

Where did James write this?

---

In the quote I gave.

quote:

---

Repentance is the way that we acknowledge the righteousness and goodness of Christ

---

People who are justified by works have no need of a Christ, and if they repent they admit that they cannot be justified and saved.

quote:

---

Paul champions salvation by works

---

But not justification by works.

quote:

---

How could (and why would) you do works for His acceptance if you didn't have faith in His existence and power to save you in the first place?

---

The Jews did that, and still do, but that did not, and does not, make them Christians.Abraham didn't do that, and there is the answer.

quote:

---

And I have provided at least two scriptures where Paul champions salvation by works (Philippians 2:12 and 2 Corinthians 7:10). So far, neither you nor KBertsche has answered either one.

---

I'm afraid this may be off-topic (it is not directly related to contradictions) so I'll be very brief.Your first passage is directed to believers, telling them to "work out" their salvation, i.e. make it visible and obvious. This is similar to James; good works should be visible as a result of salvation.Your second passage simply says that repentance leads to salvation. I suspect that "repentance" in Mormonism has a very different meaning than in the Bible. (Perhaps this is a 7th contradiction between the BoM and the Bible?) "Repentance" in the NT is the Greek "metanoia," meaning "change of mind," specifically a change of mind about God's character and a realization of one's own sinfulness. Biblical repentance is not a "work" of any sort. It is not the same as penitence or penance, though these are often equated by those who hold to a works-based salvation.

quote:

---

Your first passage is directed to believers, telling them to "work out" their salvation, i.e. make it visible and obvious.

---

That isn't Paul's meaning. He told the Philippians to complete, finish off, their salvation with, or by means of, fear and trembling. That fear is internal and hidden, though it results in the fruits of the Spirit. This is akin to Peter's direction to 'make your election sure' by adding fruits to faith. Peter does not explicitly mention the fear and trembling that are involved in adding fruits, but that is certainly implied in what he wrote.So this is not akin to James' statement, though it is true that they both believed that justification, rather than sanctification, was by faith, and could only be by faith. Mormonism, like the Catholicism that Mormonism scorns, is therefore opposed to the gospel.

Hi, KBertsche. You for some reason feel that I am not understanding you, but this is not the case. The fact is that I understand you perfectly, but that your point is completely stupid.If you say two mutually contradictory things, you cannot claim that somebody else is contradicting you when he chooses to uphold one of the two things you are saying. This is the argument that you are making, and it is an utterly stupid, prudish argument for you to make. But, you are apparently far too dense to get that you have to ignore or misinterpret half the Bible to make your completely ridiculous point.----- I have not marginalized them: I haven't even addressed them yet. My entire argument thus far has been aimed at to components of your argument:

1. That upholding one of two interpretations of the Bible does not constitute a contradiction to the Bible
2. That interpretations of scripture are not off-topic.

-----God grants salvation via grace, as I laboriously explained in Message 128. The problem is that the scripture is mechanistic, and you are interpreting it as practical. No where in the scriptures is it found that you are not required to work before you are saved. What is says is that your works are not the mechanism by which salvation comes.It is very clear, in many places, that works are required, but also that it is not your works that will save you.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, KBertsche. In what world does "work out" mean "make obvious"?I'm sorry, interpretations are off-topic in this thread: the scripture very clearly says man has to work out his own salvation. Clearly, your off-topic interpretation is false.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi, Ochaye. You might want to talk this over a little more amongst yourselves, because you and he seem to think differently on this matter.If you can't agree with one another on this interpretation, I think it's safe to say that your side of the debate doesn't really know what it means.Edited by Bluejay, : Change in wording

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

quote:

---

the scripture very clearly says man has to work out his own salvation

---

That is not disputed. The contradiction of Mormonism, Catholicism, Eastern Orthdoxy, JWism, Islam and most other religions with Scripture is that one must work for one's justification. Salvation and justification are quite different things.Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

Hi, Ochaye. He didn't say anything about perfection.----- First of all, read the subtitle again.Second of all, is this a tacit agreement with me that Paul champions salvation by works?

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

quote:

---

You might want to talk this over a little more amongst yourselves, because you and he seem to think differently on this matter.

---

Indeed. We would not want pagans to interrupt.