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Author | Topic: Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Ochaye.
ochaye writes: Mormons can't admit that they sin, because they must be perfect if they are to be justified, as James wrote. Where did James write this? -----
ochaye writes: People either offer their own righteousness to God, or that of Christ, imputed by faith. One way is accepted, the other is fatal. And, you're apparently not reading a word I'm writing. Repentance is the way that we acknowledge the righteousness and goodness of Christ:
quote: One cannot truly repent and become clean of one's sins unless he acknowledges that it is through Christ's Atonement that he is made clean. Mormons believe this. We simply believe that there is a works-based process whereby acknowledgement to Christ is made. ----- Here is Paul on the subject of repentance:
quote: Repentance leads to salvation, says Paul, just as I have already explained that Mormons believe. -----
ochaye writes: Assuming James was not rapidly schizoid, he agreed with Paul 100%. Paul wrote to people who amply demonstrated works as proof of their faith, James wrote to people who didn't; but their theology was identical. And I have provided at least two scriptures where Paul champions salvation by works (Philippians 2:12 and 2 Corinthians 7:10). So far, neither you nor KBertsche has answered either one. It appears that, not only is James "rapidly schizoid," but Paul is too, unless, of course, both of them are referring to salvation in the Mormon fashion. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Ochaye.
Sorry, didn't see this one.
ochaye writes: If one does works to be accepted by God, does one need faith at all? How could (and why would) you do works for His acceptance if you didn't have faith in His existence and power to save you in the first place? -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, KBertsche.
kbertsche writes: I am trying to stick to the thread title and the question in the OP, and to present some contradictions between the BoM and the Bible. I'm not trying to discuss the implications of these contradictions in this thread, but simply to discuss the contradictions themselves. And I have been trying to tell you that the two scriptures you quoted are not representative of the entire Bible, therefore, you cannot claim that contradictions to those two statements are contradictions to the entire Bible. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:It helps to understand your interpretation of the Bible. But of course it doesn't help to eliminate the contradiction between 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32 in the Book of Mormon, and Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5 in the Bible. Even if your interpretations were correct, this contradiction would remain. quote:This is consistent with 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:32, but contradicts Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5. quote:Your interpretation sounds very similar to Pelagianism, which Warfield described thus: B.B. Warfield writes:
(BTW, Pelagius was condemned as a heretic in the 5th century.) The Pelagian scheme therefore embraces the following points. God has endowed man with an inalienable freedom of will, by virtue of which he is fully able to do all that can be required of him. To this great gift God has added the gifts of the law and the gospel to illuminate the way of righteousness and to persuade man to walk in it; and even the gift of Christ to supply an expiation for past sins for all who will do righteousness, and especially to set a good example. Those who, under these inducements and in the power of their ineradicable freedom, turn from their sins and do righteousness, will be accepted by the righteous God and rewarded according to their deeds. Edited by kbertsche, : added Warfield quote re Pelagianism Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I don't know why this is so hard to communicate to you, so I will try to lay it out very simply: 1) Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5 are in the Bible. (Note: if you think they may be mistranslated in our English Bibles, I'm happy to discuss them with you from the Greek.) 2) 2 Nephi 25:23 and Moroni 10:3 are in the Book of Mormon. They contradict the two passages above. 3) Thus we have demonstrated that "the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible" as requested in the OP. QED (Note that the OP did not request "contradictions to the entire Bible," whatever that means. These two biblical passages are representative of biblical teaching on salvation, of course. If they are unique in any way, it is that they are so clear that it is difficult for you to twist their meaning, so you try to marginalize them as anomalies.) Edited by kbertsche, : added last two sentences
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:In the quote I gave. quote:People who are justified by works have no need of a Christ, and if they repent they admit that they cannot be justified and saved. quote:But not justification by works.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:The Jews did that, and still do, but that did not, and does not, make them Christians. Abraham didn't do that, and there is the answer.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I'm afraid this may be off-topic (it is not directly related to contradictions) so I'll be very brief. Your first passage is directed to believers, telling them to "work out" their salvation, i.e. make it visible and obvious. This is similar to James; good works should be visible as a result of salvation. Your second passage simply says that repentance leads to salvation. I suspect that "repentance" in Mormonism has a very different meaning than in the Bible. (Perhaps this is a 7th contradiction between the BoM and the Bible?) "Repentance" in the NT is the Greek "metanoia," meaning "change of mind," specifically a change of mind about God's character and a realization of one's own sinfulness. Biblical repentance is not a "work" of any sort. It is not the same as penitence or penance, though these are often equated by those who hold to a works-based salvation.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:That isn't Paul's meaning. He told the Philippians to complete, finish off, their salvation with, or by means of, fear and trembling. That fear is internal and hidden, though it results in the fruits of the Spirit. This is akin to Peter's direction to 'make your election sure' by adding fruits to faith. Peter does not explicitly mention the fear and trembling that are involved in adding fruits, but that is certainly implied in what he wrote. So this is not akin to James' statement, though it is true that they both believed that justification, rather than sanctification, was by faith, and could only be by faith. Mormonism, like the Catholicism that Mormonism scorns, is therefore opposed to the gospel.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, KBertsche.
kbertsche writes: I don't know why this is so hard to communicate to you, so I will try to lay it out very simply... You for some reason feel that I am not understanding you, but this is not the case. The fact is that I understand you perfectly, but that your point is completely stupid. If you say two mutually contradictory things, you cannot claim that somebody else is contradicting you when he chooses to uphold one of the two things you are saying. This is the argument that you are making, and it is an utterly stupid, prudish argument for you to make. But, you are apparently far too dense to get that you have to ignore or misinterpret half the Bible to make your completely ridiculous point. -----
kbertsche writes: If they are unique in any way, it is that they are so clear that it is difficult for you to twist their meaning, so you try to marginalize them as anomalies. I have not marginalized them: I haven't even addressed them yet. My entire argument thus far has been aimed at to components of your argument:
----- God grants salvation via grace, as I laboriously explained in Message 128. The problem is that the scripture is mechanistic, and you are interpreting it as practical. No where in the scriptures is it found that you are not required to work before you are saved. What is says is that your works are not the mechanism by which salvation comes. It is very clear, in many places, that works are required, but also that it is not your works that will save you. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, KBertsche.
kbertsche writes: Your first passage is directed to believers, telling them to "work out" their salvation, i.e. make it visible and obvious. In what world does "work out" mean "make obvious"? I'm sorry, interpretations are off-topic in this thread: the scripture very clearly says man has to work out his own salvation. Clearly, your off-topic interpretation is false. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Ochaye.
ochaye writes: He told the Philippians to complete, finish off, their salvation with, or by means of, fear and trembling. You might want to talk this over a little more amongst yourselves, because you and he seem to think differently on this matter. If you can't agree with one another on this interpretation, I think it's safe to say that your side of the debate doesn't really know what it means. Edited by Bluejay, : Change in wording -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote: That is not disputed. The contradiction of Mormonism, Catholicism, Eastern Orthdoxy, JWism, Islam and most other religions with Scripture is that one must work for one's justification. Salvation and justification are quite different things. Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Ochaye.
ochaye writes: Bluejay writes: Where did James write this? In the quote I gave. He didn't say anything about perfection. -----
ochaye writes: Bluejay writes: Paul champions salvation by works. But not justification by works. First of all, read the subtitle again. Second of all, is this a tacit agreement with me that Paul champions salvation by works? -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5269 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote: Indeed. We would not want pagans to interrupt.
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