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Topic: 9/11: |
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Thought I'd start up an anything-to-do with 9/11 thread. That includes a memorial, conspiracy theories, tributes, whether or not the world is safer/more dangerous, causes to why it happened, causes that may mitigate future attacks, etc, etc.
The board is yours. Edited by AdminModulous, : edited title Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change 8th to 10th in topic title."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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CosmicChimp Member Posts: 311 From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland Joined: |
German TV has had a few broadcasts this week and then several starting at midnight 11 Sept 2009., about a wide range of topics concerning 9/11/2001. You could say the event carries alot of weight in DE.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
You could say the event carries alot of weight in DE. In what way? "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams
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jacortina Member (Idle past 5114 days) Posts: 64 Joined: |
Perhaps you could start by noting that it's NOT the 7th anniversary.
That was a year ago.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Perhaps you could start by noting that it's NOT the 7th anniversary. That was a year ago. And to think all that schooling couldn't help me count. Too bad I can't fix the thread title. Admins? You reading this? A little help here... "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams
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jacortina Member (Idle past 5114 days) Posts: 64 Joined: |
Good.
That's better. As for any commentary on the subject, I'd simply urge all to do what they can to support the first responders in their locale.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
As for any commentary on the subject, I'd simply urge all to do what they can to support the first responders in their locale. Great suggestion! Since I am a first responder already at work, I'm killing two birds with one stone! "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
9/11 should be the day that we remind ourself that there are consequences for trying to control the worlds oil industries, and for supporting the illegal occupation of Israel.
Sadly, lives were lost 8 years ago today due to our governments desire for global domination. Lets not lose sight of the real reason those towers were destroyed. Every action comes with a re-action, which we may not like. - Oni
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
9/11 should be the day that we remind ourself that there are consequences for trying to control the worlds oil industries, and for supporting the illegal occupation of Israel. 9/11 was not due to oil, it was caused by extremists who ideologically disagree with the US. it was due in part, however, because of United State's stance with Israel. Israel, though, was legally given that land by what is known today as the United Nations.
Sadly, lives were lost 8 years ago today due to our governments desire for global domination. If you mean that the United States desires to be the strongest nation in existance, both economically and militarily, I would agree. If, however, you mean "global domination" by owning every piece of land on the earth for its control, I completely disagree.
Lets not lose sight of the real reason those towers were destroyed. Every action comes with a re-action, which we may not like. So it is the United State's fault that 9/11 as opposed to Al Qaeda which directed it. I suppose it was Britain's fault that they were bombed by the Luftwaffe. "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams
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CosmicChimp Member Posts: 311 From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland Joined: |
You could say the event carries alot of weight in DE.
In what way? The film Flight 93 was on last night at midnight and will probably be repeated as well. Reminded me to watch my copy of it, as I've not seen it.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
9/11 was horrific. Nobody disputes that. America did not "deserve" to be attacked - for the simple reason that there is no action that ever justifies the murder of roughly 3000 innocent civilians.
That said...we set ourselves up, and we should learn from that mistake. The continued interference of the US in foreign policy (particularly in the Middle East, but we've done just as bad or worse in South America and I;m sure elsewhere) has consequences. That doesn't mean we should become isolationist - far from it. It simply means that we need to reevaluate the heavy-handed tactics of sponsoring dictators and training resistance movements. America seems to have forgotten the "walk softly" part of Teddy Roosevelt's Big Sick policy. Instead, we tend to throw our weight around with money, weapons, and training for whoever supports our interests, without a care as to the opinions of those we're indirectly harming. We wouldn't appreciate China financing a domestic terrorist group in the US with the goal of overthrowing our current government. It's absurd to believe that we can interfere in those sorts of ways in other countries without breeding resentment ourselves. Again, we didn't deserve 9/11. There's no way to justify intentionally flying airplanes into populated buildings, regardless of what we could have done. The people in those buildings weren't responsible for any of the wrongs, real or perceived, done in the Middle East. But we gave those responsible weapons, money, and training. We set ourselves up. We gave a shitty human being a bunch of guns and training, and we were surprised when we found those things turned against us. Worse than all of that, however, and far beyond silly nonsense about blaming the victim vs. accepting responsibility for one's actions, is the aftermath of 9/11. Where we showed that we didn't learn a damned thing. Current conservative estimates place the Afghan civilian death toll at between 8500 and 11500, for those directly caused by the war. Indirect death estimates are higher, and extreme antiwar sources estimate the death toll at significantly higher than either of those numbers. The Associated Press places the civilian violent death toll in Iraq at over 100,000 since the start of the war. Those are civilian numbers. They don't include combatants. These are the innocent bystanders caught in crossfires, families abused (read: raped and murdered) by mercenaries, blown up by IEDs intended for American troops, and "collateral damage" in US airstrikes. By any rational estimate, we've committed worse atrocities than the 9/11 attacks in seeking retribution. To find justice for 3000 innocent lives, we've claimed orders of magnitude more, and completely destabilized two countries. For some, 3000 American lives count for a lot more than 100,000 Iraqis and 10,000 Afghanis. Those people are sociopaths. We didn't deserve 9/11. Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan deserved us. A reasonable response would have involved targeting only Al Qaeda training camps and their leadership, not a full-scale invasion of Afghanistan. Iraq, which had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 (and we knew that, absolutely; we just didn't care) should never have even been part of the equation. Is it good that the Taliban is no longer in power? Sure...but was it worth 10,000 innocent lives and the complete destabilization of an already-on-the-brink nation? Only the Afghanis themselves can answer that one. Is it good that Saddam Hussein is dead? Sure - the man was a war criminal for the gassing of the Kurds alone, let alone everything else he was responsible for. But was it worth 100,000 Iraqi civilian lives and the destabilization of a nation that was actually prepared to ally with the US for common defense against Iran? Ask an Iraqi. To avenge 3000 lives, we reacted out of fear. We changed our way of life, cracked down on civil liberties at home, and disregarded international law. We have actually had to debate the legality and justification of torture. Al Qaeda succeeded in exactly what they set out to do - they terrorized us into eroding the very things that made America great. There was no way guerrilla warfare could topple the US...but we have sacrificed our international goodwill and become monsters ourselves as a direct result of the 9/11 attacks. We are now more afraid, less civilized, less empathetic, and more divided than we were on 9/10/01. Our actions have served as propaganda for new terrorist recruitment, and the lives we've destroyed have bred resentment that will continue the cycle. If we're lucky, we'll learn our lesson this time. I won't hold my breath.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I couldn't have said it better than Rahvin, but I'll answer your specifics.
9/11 was not due to oil, it was caused by extremists who ideologically disagree with the US. The acts themselves, the towers, Pentagon, etc., yes, were caused by, (losely worded) extremists. But no action, especially not one to the degree of 9/11, comes without an inciting cause. The US's strong-hold on the worlds oil supply, which affiliates them with the Saudi Royal family, was one of those inciting causes. Supporting Israel's illegal occupation, was another.
Israel, though, was legally given that land by what is known today as the United Nations. Sure, if you make up your own laws then your actions can be considered legal, by the same people that made the laws up. But when viewed from an outside perspective, one that takes into consideration the people who lived there before Israel invaded and occupied, it was not a legal action.
If you mean that the United States desires to be the strongest nation in existance, both economically and militarily, I would agree. If, however, you mean "global domination" by owning every piece of land on the earth for its control, I completely disagree. What I'm refering to is Globalization; I'm refering to the global spread of US political ideoligies, religious ideologies and cultural ideologies, with military action. It's the same tactic used by early Christian churches to spread the "good" word. "Accept what we want to give you or die defending yourselves." Not much of a choice, eh? The negative aspects of globalization:
quote: Just to mention a few...
So it is the United State's fault that 9/11 as opposed to Al Qaeda which directed it. The act itself was due to Al Qaeda, the reason for the attack was due to US foreign policies. Like Rahvin stated, the US didn't deserve it, but that is besides the point. Actions have consequences. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Seems to be a hefty amount of interest. That was one of the biggest events in recent human history. Seems only natural to be interested in it. Anyhow thanks for clarifying for me. "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
From Dronester's Message 25, Shoes for Journalists thread
Bin Laden himself said the three ACTUAL reasons for 9/11 was:
1. US military bases in Saudi Arabia that despoiled the holy land.2. US support of Israel human rights violations against Palestinians that cause repression, torture and death. 3. The US supported sanctions against Iraq that murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children in the 1990s.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Gawsh...
Sounds an aweful lot like: "She was asking for it."
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