Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?

I stand by the interpretation presented in Message 154. As many of your comments are off-topic for this thread, I will try to limit my responses to ones that may help to illustrate the differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

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They are already saved.

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They are already justified. So merely to cite this verse in the context of justification is unjustified.

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I used the word "salvation" in my message and in the title of this sub-thread because this is the word used in Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5. Yes, in both of these passages it has the sense of "justification."

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Salvation is in them

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Salvation is in no-one.

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In its theological usage, "salvation" includes the dual concepts of "justification" and "conversion," which are flip-sides of the same coin. These are essentially internal changes, including a new birth and the implanting of a new spirit.

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Salvation is for those who are justified by faith at the time that they die, or when Jesus returns. To remain justified by faith entails the continued obedience implied by faith. If one does not experience fear and trembling in learning obedience, one is no Christian.

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Careful--you seem to be making salvation contingent on one's continuing in the faith. This is little different from the Mormon position of making it contingent on works. Biblical salvation is contingent only on God's grace, and is entered into through faith. Good works and continuance in the faith are two results of true salvation, but they are not the means or basis for this salvation.For a clear exposition of the biblical plan of salvation, please see The Plan of Salvation by B.B. Warfield, which was referred to earlier.

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it needs to be worked out, or put into practice.

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That is incorrect and improper use of English.

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Paul specifically uses the directional word "work out." This is in contrast to his mention of God "working in" in the next verse. There is nothing improper about this use of English.

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This refers back to their interpersonal conflicts.

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There are no such conflicts mentioned.

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Interpersonal conflicts are strongly implied in Phil 2:1-4.

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The above is the most dreadful eisegesis, both technically and in its effect.

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Absolutely not. The exegesis of the passage presented in Message 154 is based on in-depth study of the passage in the Greek and in the context of the book of Philippians. It is consistent with both the Greek vocabulary and grammar of the passage, and the flow of Paul's logical argument in the book of Philippians.

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I used the word "salvation" in my message and in the title of this sub-thread because this is the word used in Eph 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5. Yes, in both of these passages it has the sense of "justification."

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But your own word was 'saved'.

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In its theological usage, "salvation" includes the dual concepts of "justification" and "conversion,"

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I suppose it could do in Calvinist theology, but then conversion, that others think necessarily involves fear and trembling, is hardly an event in Calvinism, interestingly enough. But the idea that producing works is the same as sanctification is so far from Christianity that it is not even worth discussion. Sanctification is a process that must involve fear and trembling- it is the very means of growth. One has yet to be converted if one thinks otherwise.

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But the idea that producing works is the same as sanctification is so far from Christianity that it is not even worth discussion. Sanctification is a process that must involve fear and trembling- it is the very means of growth.

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I agree that sanctification is an ongoing growth process. This process includes both internal aspects (changes of attitude, perspective, etc) and external aspects (good works, changes of behavior, etc).

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This process includes... internal aspects (changes of attitude, perspective, etc)

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That's an improvement, even if it's copied.

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This process includes... internal aspects (changes of attitude, perspective, etc)

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That's an improvement, even if it's copied.

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This was not consciously copied from anywhere else. But I don't doubt that the wording is similar to things that I, you, or others have written before.

Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

So much so that the present day term for a good exercising of the body is a "work out".

Hello, Everyone.Sorry to keep you all waiting so long, but, like I said, I’ve been dreadfully busy.This will be my closing argument on this thread. I do not like the way this topic consumes me and ruins my ability to focus at work, so I will not post again here after this.I maintain that the contradiction in the grace vs works debate is purely on the part of the Bible. The entire Bible contains multiple instances of commandments being given and of judgment being meted out on the basis of our actions; neither of these is consistent with the view that works are not necessary for salvation. I maintain that the teachings of different books in the Bible do not conform to one another in a consistent fashion, despite the obstinate denial by Kbertsche and Ochaye.However, I would like to add a new observation, just to stir things up a little bit:

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Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

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-2 Nephi 26:27

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and

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And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.

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-2 Nephi 2:4

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24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

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-2 Nephi 10:24

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This is salvation by grace alone, championed in the Book of Mormon. In order to be consistent, KBertsche must now claim that the BoM contradicts the Bible twice, because now the BoM contradicts both of the Bible’s mutually contradicting statements about the means of salvation.-----The simple fact is that, despite the incessant hounding of born-again Christians, no Christian on the planet believes in salvation by grace alone. Not one. Every single one of us believes that salvation is, at least in part, contingent on man. The Bible contains a repetitive formula: If you do X, you get Y:Here are four:Matthew 14:12
Matthew 19:17
John 15:10
1 Corinthians 3:13-15These scriptures very clearly speak of works, and how works translate into salvation, eternal life, God’s love and grace, judgment, etc. But, to Kbertsche, this doesn’t matter, because some other verses say completely the opposite.KBertsche’s idiotic argument can be allegorized as follows: -----And, finally, it is abundantly clear that KBertsche and Ochaye have nothing more than a personal interpretation about what the Bible message is. In fact, ironically, most of the Christian community disagrees with them about their interpretation. At the very least, this should make it clear that the matter is unresolved, and that the statements of KBertsche and Ochaye are not authoritative.In light of this evidence, I declare a mis-trial.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

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The entire Bible contains multiple instances of commandments being given and of judgment being meted out on the basis of our actions; neither of these is consistent with the view that works are not necessary for salvation.

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There is no argument that works are not necessary for salvation. The crux is whether they are necessary for justification. Between Moses and the crucifixion, law was given. Why? To increase guilt, to show precisely that doing works is utterly preposterous as a means of justifying oneself- that Abraham, justified by faith, is the true model. The long, lamentable record of the Israelites is provided as the clearest evidence that works can never get close to acceptability, even in human terms. In God's eyes, works are a non-starter. As James remarked, just one sin is sufficient to damn the conscience. God demands perfection, and perfection is only in Jesus, the Christ of man, by transferred righteousness through faith. In the New Testament, works are treated as the due evidence of faith, or in the case of pagans, as reason for their condemnation that even they can see. But pagans in reality are condemned because they do not 'love the truth'. The truth is that they are helpless sinners, and they must be converted, giving up their whole wills, their whole lives, to Christ, if they are to be accounted perfect. Mormons, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and many Protestants, including Calvinists, are included with them.It does not matter how much the BoM says that salvation is free, etc. It is just so much camouflage on a loaded artillery piece, sugar on a poison pill. It's double-talk worthy of the Qur'an. Apart from the BoM works heresy already seen, Mormonism opposes Christ and Christianity merely by laying claim to a special revelation, that one must belong to a particular organisation if one is to be saved. That is why it is condemned by all Protestant theologians, and of course by Catholics who protest that they are the single organisation chosen of God.Anyone who tells you, "You've got to be with my gang," is not worth opening the door to.

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The simple fact is that, despite the incessant hounding of born-again Christians, no Christian on the planet believes in salvation by grace alone. Not one. Every single one of us believes that salvation is, at least in part, contingent on man.

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Sorry, but what you say is clearly false. Please read The Plan of Salvation by B.B. Warfield, which I have referred to earlier.I stand by my statement that good works are absolutely not a means of salvation, as Paul clearly said in Eph. 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5. It is interesting that no-one in this thread has tried to offer an alternative explanation of either of these two passages--their meaning is simply too clear to argue otherwise.

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The Bible contains a repetitive formula: If you do X, you get Y:
Here are four:

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OK, let's look at them.

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Matthew 14:12

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This reference seems to be a typo?

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Matthew 19:17

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Read the rest of the story! The point is that it is impossible to gain salvation by doing good deeds--one can never do enough good to ensure salvation.

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John 15:10

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This is speaking of fellowship with God, not of salvation.

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1 Corinthians 3:13-15

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This directly argues against your claim! Verse 15 says that some will be saved even though their works are burned up.

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And, finally, it is abundantly clear that KBertsche and Ochaye have nothing more than a personal interpretation about what the Bible message is. In fact, ironically, most of the Christian community disagrees with them about their interpretation.

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Sorry, but what you say is false. What we have been explaining is the historic Christian faith.Paul taught in the first century that salvation was not on the basis of good works. Augustine taught this in the fifth century in opposition to Pelagius. Pelagius' view was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD, and an Augustinian understanding was declared to be orthodox. Over the centuries the Catholic Church drifted away from Augustine toward a semi-Pelagian understanding. The views of Paul and Augustine were recovered by Martin Luther, an Augustinian monk, in the 16th century. "Grace alone" became one of the slogans of the Reformation, but the concept goes back to Paul and Augustine.

Pity that we discuss the differences in the various books..
It is a well known fact that the Leader has followers. The disciples followed Christ and became known as christians. The gave thier lives for thier faith. By commiting themselves to death for thier faith in thier saviour, they made an eternal stand. The basis of this knowledge in the phisycal is the written word. Today known as the Bible.The authenticity of this collection of books has been proven beyond any possible doubt...Worlwide !!!!. The Period of existance is also unchalangable proof of the truth of this written word. The followers today are still called christians. they still teach the same truths that was taught by Jesus Christ.This makes it the Bible

The book of Mormon does not share the same authenticity. The book of Mormon is one man's thaughts and perceptions of what man vs God is. It is also, unfortunately one persons believe that man is God in the making, to be God of his / her own world one day. It sound like a cheap way to have worldomination to me...

Tentively raises a finger and points to the Calvinists (of which I am not one )My own view wouldn't agree with you either, believing as I do in the Bibles pointing to the relentlessly sinful nature of man which, if left to it's own devices would express it's will in one direction and one directon only, ie: contra God.Assuming man's nature to be as described above (not at all rare a view amongst Christians), salvation cannot be dependent on any act of the will of man - whether in thought or carried out unto deed. I mean, how can a being that can only do evil (were it not for Gods' restraint) contribute to his own salvation and foil the notion of salvation by grace alone?- Therein lies a rather big clue leading one to conclude salvation by grace alone.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Please provide one of these "proofs" of the authenticity of the Bible. (By authenticity, I assume you mean divinity). Actually, a group of MEN on the Council of Nicaea made the Bible by VOTING on which books to include in it.

Not even the NT agrees with you on this one.

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James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

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"Grace only" is a recent Lutheran Doctrine. Sadly it is about as well founded in scripture as the trinity.Edited by Michamus, : added quotation marks for clarity