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Author Topic:   How did Adam and Eve know good from evil?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 196 of 227 (555540)
04-14-2010 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Huntard
04-14-2010 5:12 AM


Huntard writes:
Actually no. I fear this will open a whole new can of worms, but I don't follow the rules because I live under their governance. In fact, there are rules I break regularly. I follow the rules because of the consequneces to other people when I don't. This is also why I break some rules. Crossing a red light, for example, when there is no traffic whatsoever. It's forbidden by law, yet I do it anyway, simply becasue there are no consequences to other people.
im talking about legal consequences. We get issued a fine if we are caught running red lights. What do you get if you are caught?
Huntard writes:
No, I would do what I do now. Because I understand good and evil, thanks to Adam and Eve! The legal consequences are not why I follow these rules, the societal consequences are.
either way it doesnt matter...there are consequences and you obey because you dont want those consequences.
Huntard writes:
Actually, no it isn't. They shouldn't do stuff simply because god has told them not to. Not becuase of consequences for others, not because of consequences to themselves, simply because the whim of god has determined it to be so. That's not a basis I would follow anybody under.
thats fair enough, you have the right to make that decision. However the decision to be independent of God is what leads to death. So if you wanted to avoid death, you would need choose dependence and obedience. They chose independence and it led to death for all mankind but not all mankind are happy with their decision. I would rather live forever therefore i choose dependence on Gods laws. He is the lawmaker because he is the creator and in the position of the universal sovereign, this gives him the right to make laws and me as a subject have an obligation to obey him.
doing so leads to life which is a much better prospect then death.
Huntard writes:
How do you know snakes weren't supposed to talk? How do you know no other animals talked? There's nothing in genesis that says other animals couldn;t talk.
Lets look at it logically.
Do any animals today have the ability for human language? Can they speak a human language?
No they cant. But lets say they did, why would God later remove the ability to speak human language from them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Huntard, posted 04-14-2010 5:12 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Huntard, posted 04-14-2010 5:52 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 198 of 227 (555542)
04-14-2010 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Rrhain
04-14-2010 5:31 AM


Rrhain writes:
Yes, I have. One will give you damnation. The other will give you salvation.
Oh! You want to know which is which before you make the decision. Sorry, but that requires you eat from the tree. After you eat from the tree, then I'll let you know if eating from the tree was beetaratagang or clerendipity.
yet God told them eating would lead to death
So, unlike me, they knew which one would lead to evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Rrhain, posted 04-14-2010 5:31 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 04-14-2010 6:59 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 206 of 227 (555555)
04-14-2010 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Huntard
04-14-2010 5:52 AM


Huntard writes:
Not according to genesis 3:22. That clearly states Adam and Eve are not immortal i.e. they will die. In fact, everybody dies, I know of no one that is immortal, whetehr he follows god or not.
this only became the mandate AFTER he had eaten. So logically, if he had never eaten that mandate would never have come into effect.
And the fact that there was another tree called the 'tree of life' is just further evidence that the opportunity for them was always eternal life. It was a symbolic tree just as the tree of knowledge was symbolic.
Huntard writes:
I care to much for my independence, so sorry, not gonna happen.
Imagine yourself hanging off the edge of a cliff. You're holding on for your life and someone comes along and says, you have to do exactly as i say if you want to get your feet back on solid ground.
Will you ignore him in the name of independence?
There is nothing wrong with dependence...its not a weakness or a disadvantage...in some circumstances, its a lifesaver.
Huntard writes:
So, basically, might makes right? I Don't like that concept too much.
in human terms, no. Might tends to lead to corruption and abuse. But God never abuses his authority, he lives by his own laws and is completely incorruptible. He will never abuse his power. The fact that independence has been permitted for so long is evidence of that.
Huntard writes:
Eternal life looks rather boring to me. I'd rather make the most of this one with my friends and loved ones, and die in the end knowing I've had a good life.
You know what most of the elderly people who have lived full lives say before they die?
"I'm not ready to go yet"
If you feel that your ok about dieing, can you give us a date for the day that you would be happy to die? I dont know how old you are right now, but if you are 50, would you be happy dieing in 30 years from today?
You have to admit that its a pretty short life we live. Our working lives only amount to about 40-50 years. Some scientists have got to the end of their lives and their 'lifework' was still incomplete...and thats just studying one subject.
Huntard writes:
Maybe to keep them from "tempting" us into more "bad" things? In any case, neither of us knows. From Eve's reaction though there are two possible conclusions, like I said. Either she was a "dimwit", or animals could speak in Eden.
or alternatively, she was naive. She was the youngest of Gods creations and she was of a submissive nature....this would make her a little naive surely.
Also, we have the understanding from the Apostle Paul that she was completely 'decieved'... unlike Adam who was not decieved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Huntard, posted 04-14-2010 5:52 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Huntard, posted 04-14-2010 7:51 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 207 of 227 (555558)
04-14-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Rrhain
04-14-2010 5:52 AM


Rrhain writes:
But, like English use of the word "day," you can indicate indefinite periods of time, but only if you phrase it in the right way. In English, we say, "in the day" to indicate an indefinite period of time. But, if we were to say, "You'll be gone for a day," we don't mean longer than 24 hours.
Hebrew works the same way.
it doesnt work the same way.
They are completely different languages with completely different gramatical structures. Its just that you are reading the verse from an english translation so to you it seems that the gramatics are the same because thats how the english interpreters have rendered the verse...thats what translators do.
Here are some examples of how the hebrew grammar is FAR different to our english:
[b]?למי הוא אמר [leˈmi hu aˈmaʁ?], literally "To-whom he told?",
means "Whom did he tell?"
פנה אליי איזשהו אדם שביקש שאעזור לו עם דבר-מה [paˈna eˈlaj ˈezeʃehu aˈdam, ʃe-biˈkeʃ ʃe-eeˈzor lo im dvar-ˈma], literally "Turned to-me some man that-asked that-[I]-will-help to-him with something",
means "A man came to me wanting me to help him with something."
הייתה סיבה שביקשתי [hajˈta siˈba ʃe-biˈkaʃti], literally "Was reason that-[I]-asked",
means "There was a reason I asked."
הבן שלו הוא האבא שלה [haˈben ʃeˈlo hu ha-ˈaba ʃeˈlah], literally "the-son of-his he the-father of-hers",
means "his son is her father."[/b]
Rrhain writes:
Of course, your justification of using New Testament scriptures has a problem: It's in Greek. Thus, you cannot apply it to Hebrew texts.
The verses we are discussing are from the hebrew text...not the NT.
Rrhain writes:
Since Judaism has no concept of the devil, this is obvious by simple inspection.
So whats with the book of Job?
Quite a lengthy discussion in there about the Devil... do you deny that Job is a book of the Hebrew Scriptures?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Rrhain, posted 04-14-2010 5:52 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Rrhain, posted 04-15-2010 4:48 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 209 of 227 (555667)
04-14-2010 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Huntard
04-14-2010 7:51 AM


Huntard writes:
Well yes, the opportunity was there, but only after eating from the tree, meaning they weren't created immortal.
No, it was only after eating from the tree of knowledge that God prevented them from eating of the tree of life.
If they never had eaten from the first tree, the 2nd tree would have been freely available to them.
Huntard writes:
Not according to the text. The text clearly says the trees grant these things.
But only in a symbolic sense. There are many things in the bible that were symbolic of something else. For instance the Ark of the Covenant was symbolic of the relationship between Isreal and God. The Temple was symbolic of Gods presence with Isreal. The throne of the King was a symbol of God ruling Isreal.
In the same way, the two trees were symbolic of Gods rulership and of the prospect for eternal life.
Huntard writes:
Also, if there were two persons telling me opposite thigns, I wouldn;t know which one to trust if I didn't know them either, or lacking any other clues as to their sincerity.
Bingo!
Adam and Eve knew God, they knew he was their father, they had intimate contact with him, he cared for them, he fed them, the looked after them....so they knew they could trust him becasue he had proved himself trustworthy.
They should have remained loyal to him rather then go along with the word of a stranger.
Huntard writes:
Like the "Thou shalt not kill" law? Oh yes, he holds to that one marvelously, doesn't he?
Life only exists because he creates it. He is the power source of all life on earth, so if we remove ourselves from that source, we are dead anyway. And for those who willfully act in ways that cause death and destruction to his creations, he has the right (and responsibility) to take away their lifeforce.
We dont have that right and this is why he forbids murder. But when he removes a person life, its not murder....its justice.
Huntard writes:
An eternal one however? I'd be bored out of my skull somewhere in that eternal time, and then I'd still have an eternity ahead of me. No thanks.
well i guess thats why God gives us the choice. he'd prefer we choose 'life' but in the end its our decision and the fact that he allows us to choose death just shows that he respects our decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Huntard, posted 04-14-2010 7:51 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Huntard, posted 04-15-2010 3:54 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 211 of 227 (555707)
04-15-2010 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Huntard
04-15-2010 3:54 AM


Huntard writes:
Yes, because he was afraid they would gain immortality, meaning they didn't have that. In short, they weren't created immortal. What if they had eaten from the tree of life first, and then from the tree of knowledge?
this is exactly why the trees had to be symbolic and not literal. If the tree of life could impart to them something that God did not want them the have, why would he even put it there. It would serve no purpose to put a tree there that could give them something that was not part of Gods plan for them.
Huntard writes:
Second, why, if god wanted them to live forever so badly, didn;t he create them immortal, or at least make them eat from the tree first. And third, what if they had eaten from that tree first? Then god's threat would've made no sense.
Because immortality is not just liviing forever.
Its much more then that. The angels are mortal beings, yet they live forever. They are not immortal though.
God is immortal because he does not require anyone to give him life...he has life within himself. All mortal creatures rely on God for life.
Immortality is deathlessness according to the greek word. God is deathless but all of his created beings are 'mortal' meaning they can die if he allows it. On the other hand, they can also live forever if he allows it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Huntard, posted 04-15-2010 3:54 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Huntard, posted 04-15-2010 8:26 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 213 of 227 (555715)
04-15-2010 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Rrhain
04-15-2010 4:48 AM


Rrhain writes:
Huh? You just destroyed your own argument. You're the one saying that the Bible is literal and that the creation days of Genesis 1 are literal, 24-hour days.
dont take me out of context. My comment above was to your claim that english and hebrew grammar work the same way.
I said 'it doesnt work the same way'
And NO, i dont believe the Yom is 24 literal hours in genesis.
Rrhain writes:
What I deny is that there is any mention of the devil in Job.
Do not insert your Christian theology onto a Jewish text.
Job 1:6Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.
While the hebrew word means 'resister', the Satan in this verse uses the definite article has.Sa.tan
So its 'the resister'
The resister is also mentioned at Zechariah 3:1-3 "And he proceeded to show me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand in order to resist him. 2Then [the angel of] Jehovah said to Satan: Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan,"
Whoever this angle is mentioned in job, he is an angel who became a resister and enemy of God.
In the NT he is identified as the 'devil' AND 'satan' and they are the same thing. Devil means 'opposer' and Satan means 'resister. And im sorry to contradict you here, but those who first spoke about the devil WERE jews.
Christianity was started by Jews.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Rrhain, posted 04-15-2010 4:48 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by purpledawn, posted 04-15-2010 7:55 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 220 by Rrhain, posted 04-16-2010 9:36 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 216 of 227 (555911)
04-16-2010 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Huntard
04-15-2010 8:26 AM


Huntard writes:
Anyway, that's not the point here. Adam and Eve were not created to live forever (and thus, meant to die), as is clear from the text.
I have just one question for you with regard to living forever.
If it were never Gods purpose for Adam and Eve (and their children) to live forever, why is that prospect a central theme in the bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Huntard, posted 04-15-2010 8:26 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2010 7:03 AM Peg has replied
 Message 221 by Rrhain, posted 04-16-2010 9:46 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 218 of 227 (555920)
04-16-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Huntard
04-16-2010 7:03 AM


Huntard writes:
Because most people (as you have alluded to), will find living forever a great prospect to look forward to. Promise them a reward they will definately want, and they will follow. Of course, make sure the award can never be obtained within their own lifetime. Tell them it will be i the future, long after they and you have died. If you jut live how we tell you to, then when the time finally arives, you get to live forever!
Ok, so you dont deny that the bible contains such a prospect.
This is why we must look at all areas of scripture to understand what is being said in others.
You probably notice that nowhere in genesis is 'free-will' mentioned. Yet from other scriptures stating that God has given mankind a 'choice' is how we understand what free-will is and that Adam and Eve had it.
The fact that the prospect of eternal life is held out to mankind in the many other scriptures leads us to conclude that Adam and Eve also had such a prospect....the tree of which symbolized that prospect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2010 7:03 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2010 8:55 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 222 of 227 (556069)
04-17-2010 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Huntard
04-16-2010 8:55 AM


Huntard writes:
I don't agree with that. You can't impose stuff witten centuries after genesis upon genesis.
Yes, you can. Jesus did because he understood that the bible was written by one author for all mankind. There is a theme that runs thru the entire bible and everything is interlinked and inertwined....that what makes studying it so interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2010 8:55 AM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Rrhain, posted 04-17-2010 7:36 AM Peg has replied
 Message 224 by purpledawn, posted 04-17-2010 7:55 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 225 of 227 (556098)
04-17-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Rrhain
04-17-2010 7:36 AM


Rrhain writes:
Strange how the people who wrote the Torah don't seem to think all that stuff that was written centuries after has any connection.
Or are you trying to tell Jews that they don't understand their own religion again?
the fact is that judaism today has changed greatly from what it was when genesis was written

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Rrhain, posted 04-17-2010 7:36 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Coragyps, posted 04-17-2010 1:21 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 227 by Rrhain, posted 04-18-2010 6:25 AM Peg has not replied

  
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