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Author Topic:   Vestigial Organs?
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 90 of 109 (559554)
05-10-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Peg
05-10-2010 5:27 AM


Re: correct link
On page 164 under the subtitle 'Bursa Pharyngeal' he goes on to say it is a 'degenerative' organ meaning it becomes vestigial.
You are clearly confusing 2 separate usages of the term degeneration. p.164 clearly describes degeneration of the tonsils as involving shrinking, fusing and the formation of crypts and cysts as well as linking it to the onset of puberty, clearly not a description of anything to do with being an evolutionarily vestigial organ.
The Bursa Pharyngeal is not an old term for tonsils it is a term for itself, it isn't the pharyngeal tonsils but a structure associated with them.
As PaulK has also pointed out the tonsils being discussed here are the pharyngeal tonsils, also known as the adenoids, rather than the palatine tonsils which are what are removed in a normal tonsillectomy.
It is also pretty clear from any rudimentary knowledge of medical history that the reason tonsils are removed are not for evolutionary reasons but because their structure often forms a breeding ground for bacteria leading to painful and potentially dangerous infections.
So you are reading things wrong in at least 2 or 3 different ways.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 5:27 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 7:14 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 92 of 109 (559701)
05-11-2010 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Peg
05-10-2010 7:14 PM


Wiedersheim’s list
This seems to be something that has a reality and a somewhat different false version which is commonly bandied about. If you look at wikipedia's entry on Wiedersheim it gives several examples as having been on the list of 86 vestigial organs, but looking at the actual list itself, on p.200 of the book in section B on organs which might accurately be termed vestigial, we find a number of them clearly missing, specifically the tonsils and adenoids (neither of which are even mentioned in the book apart from that one reference in the Bursa Pharyngea section) and thymus (in another list of organs which have had probable changes in function). Even then these are only organs 'wholly or in part functionless' which includes structures which only occur in the embryo in humans but persist in other vertebrates.
This confusion may well not have originated from creationists, but where it has come from is unclear.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 05-10-2010 7:14 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Peg, posted 05-11-2010 6:54 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 94 of 109 (559721)
05-11-2010 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Peg
05-11-2010 6:54 AM


Re: Wiedersheim’s list
Just to confuse the issue I have made some edits to the Wikipedia page.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 99 of 109 (560222)
05-13-2010 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Peg
05-13-2010 7:47 PM


sheep, pigs and deers have split hooves...are they related?
Um, yes. They are members of the order Artiodactyla the even-toed ungulates and their relationship is supported by genetic analysis. You could add cows and giraffes to your list as well, not to mention camels and hippos.
Do you ever think to check these things out before you ask them?
perhaps the gene was rendered inactive once it was inserted into the mouse
Such mice are bred for more than one generation, if it was simply that the human copy was inactive in the mouse then you would tend to see no viable mice homozygous for the human version in later generations if it was an important gene.
have they tried this in the embryonic stages of life before the genes have had a chance to do what they were designed to do?
That is what they do, you can't make an adult transgenic mouse without having it grow from a transgenic embryo. The real trick is working out how to let you only activate the changed genes at later stages of development or in the adult.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Peg, posted 05-13-2010 7:47 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Peg, posted 05-13-2010 8:46 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
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