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Author Topic:   Counter-Intuitive Science
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 152 of 182 (601181)
01-19-2011 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by RAZD
01-18-2011 11:35 PM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
It appears that you have a 1/3 possibility of winning whether you switch or not (unless you want to win the goat). This is the way the game appears at first.
Yes, at the very beginning, when no door has been chosen nor opened. You have a 1/3 chance of winning the car (if the presentator will open one at random)
However, when the presentator opens a goat, you know you are not in sit. C1 and C2, and so you know your chances just went up to 50/50
Now it could be argued that in the original game the host eliminates Sit C1 and Sit C2, and this leaves you with a 50:50 chance ... what am I missing?
It also eliminates one of A1 and A2 (in fact, they become one and the same)
Without this, there would be A1,A2,B1,B2 which would mean, even with three doors, that you would be randomnly picking the car half of the time. (which we know is not true, since you will be picking it 1/3 of the time)

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 154 of 182 (601266)
01-19-2011 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by cavediver
01-19-2011 5:01 AM


Re: Counter-Intuitive Math
Even to this I will object The scenarios are not in anyway identical as in the second situation you are throwing away one possibility. And use of the word "chose" has a different meaning in each situation (in the first, he choses by way of knowledge, in the second, there is no choice - he makes a random guess which provides the choice for him)
I repeat, I'm not arguing with your result or your methodology. I am trying to ensure that the question is set up unambiguously to begin with, because it is pointless saying that people are confused by the situation when the very question introduces most of that confusion!
Then How would you formulate it then ?
I get what you mean, but I thought maybe the easiest way would be to just see it from the referential of the contestant if you will. From the eyes of the contestant, the two situations are identical. You choose a door, he opens one of the two left and reveals a goat, and he asks you if you want to change ?
Now it is just to realize that if someone from behind a curtain behind you would say: ''He deliberately opened the goat, he knows where the car is'' or ''he opened a door randomnly'', then you should then know that the probabilities aren't distributed in the same way in both situations.
But if there is a better way to present it, I'm open
Ha - there's me using one colloquialism to ask about another! That will teach me...
I was just asking if "I know it sounds anal" makes sense to you? (given that you have English as a second language) - it means "I know it appears that I am being unreasonably stubborn about this point"
Ha, didn't know that expression. And know, it would prove difficult to appear unreasonably stuborn about a point with me. Remember, I study Math and Physics, so the mathmatician side of me knows the devil is in the details

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 157 of 182 (601341)
01-19-2011 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Noetherian Atheist
01-19-2011 8:51 PM


Re: More counterintuitive Maths
One involves 3 plain cards with faces coloured red/red, red/green & green/green. Now if one card is chosen at random and placed on a table so that you can see one side (red say), what it the probability that the other side is also red?
2/3 ?
Secondly, perhaps more of a paradox, but anyway... draw a circle (doesn't matter how big) and then inscribe an equilateral triangle (inside the circle with its corners touch the circle). What is the probability that, for a straight line drawn through the circle, the part of the line which is inside the circle is longer than the length of the equilateral triangle's sides? This one is not obvious, but the point is that there are perfectly reasonable arguements which appear to demonstrate that the probability is both 1/2 & 1/3.
The line can be drawn anywhere in the circle ? I mean, it's length can range from 0 up to D (diameter) ?
AbE I get 25% (1/4)
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2011 7:48 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 158 of 182 (601461)
01-20-2011 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Noetherian Atheist
01-19-2011 8:51 PM


Re: More counterintuitive Maths
Anyone else can solve these problems, see if I'm at least half-right ?
I have a feeling Noetherian Atheist won't be coming back to give me the answers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Noetherian Atheist, posted 01-19-2011 8:51 PM Noetherian Atheist has not replied

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 Message 159 by Panda, posted 01-20-2011 6:27 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 160 by cavediver, posted 01-20-2011 6:57 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 164 of 182 (601492)
01-20-2011 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by cavediver
01-20-2011 6:57 PM


Re: More counterintuitive Maths
Well, the 2/3 is obvious What is counterintuuitive is that it could be anything else... and that can be a stumbling block, as the obvious answer is 2/3, so that must be the trap, so what must the real answer be?
It seems so obvious I tell myself exactly the same thing
I'm not sure where you get 0.25 from. I can get 1/3 by considering chords from a fixed point (one of the triangle vertices), and sweeping the chords from the tangent around the circle and back to the tangent. So through the first 60 degrees, the chords grow to the length of the triangle; the second 60 degrees they are longer, and the final 60 degrees they shrink again back to the tangent line (with length 0)
For 1/2, same thing but consider the chords sweeping across the circle, staying parallel to the tangent at one of the vertices. The base of the triangle is 3/4 of the way across the circle, so the chords between 1/4 of the way and 3/4 of the way across must be longer than the base. So 1/2 are longer.
I had thought about the reasoning for 1/2.
But here's how I viewed to to get the 1/4. Each line drawn inside the circle will have a middle point. For example, if the middle point is at the center, then the line is actually the diameter. So I calculated the area inside the circle where the middle point can be which would involve a line longer then the side of the triangle. This area is a smaller circle with a diameter of D/2 (D being the diameter of the bigger circle) at the center of the bigger circle. Which has a fourth of the total area of the circle.
AbE I don't feel this is clear. It's a circle in a circle, and whenever the middle point of the line is in the inner circle, the line is longer. Everywhere else in the outer circle it is smaller. Since the area of the inner circle takes 25% of the area of the outer circle, so will the line be longer then the sides of the triangle 25% of the time.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 165 of 182 (601495)
01-20-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by RAZD
01-20-2011 7:48 PM


Re: More counterintuitive Maths
The question that is asked is essentially: Out of the three, what is the chance I get a card that has the same color on both sides ?
Seen this way, it is obvious that the answer is 2/3.
Seen another way, there are 6 faces in total (2 per card). half are green, and half are red. Whichever color you choose, you have 2/3 chances to have picked the card single-colored card, since it has 2 of the total three faces of that color.
In other words. Suppose you get red. You either picked the red/red card on it's face no1, or on it's face no2 or the red/green card on it's face no1. Idem for green.

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 171 of 182 (601684)
01-23-2011 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Noetherian Atheist
01-21-2011 7:40 PM


Re: More counterintuitive Maths
Myself, I'd question the whole basis of a probability of choosing any one element of an infinite subset, from a larger set, and finding the answer is "1/3". I thought about an argument based on assuming finitely wide strips, and then limiting, but again, does a probability carry across a limit (or an integral)? Functional analysis is not my area.
I would guess that it does, or at least that there is a way of finding the correct probability.
I remember my physics teacher last year asked us the following math question: given a stick that is a meter long, what is the probability that, by cutting it in 3 parts, I can take those three parts and form triangle.
Which is kinda similar to your question, since there are, mathematically, infinitely many ways to cut a stick in three pieces. Yet there was still a real answer.
Yet I still do feel quite confident about my 1/4 answer, I have given much thought into it and it still feels like the right approach. While something which I can't put my finger on is missing in the two other reasonings who give 1/2 and 1/3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Noetherian Atheist, posted 01-21-2011 7:40 PM Noetherian Atheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by cavediver, posted 01-23-2011 4:24 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 174 of 182 (601722)
01-23-2011 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by cavediver
01-23-2011 4:24 AM


Re: More counterintuitive Maths
It's actually the method I started to look at when looking for the 1/3 and 1/2 answers - but the methods behind those answers suddenly became obvious and I forgot about this first idea. It is very elegant, especially as it seems to put the chords in one-to-one correspondance with the points of the circle... but there is an issue that occurs to me
That all points aren't born equal ? I have been thinking that an infinit number of lines can have there middle-point be at the middle of the circles. While this is not true for any other lines drawn, as their middle points will be unique to them. (at least that's how I see it, my visualisation could be wrong)
And there is still the other issue of distribution function - how are these lines being chosen? Is your answer based on the most natural distribution? For example, your distribution would have 1/10 of all lines drawn being within 1/20 of the radius from the circumference! Does that sound reasonable? (and one half of all lines are within 3/10 of the radius from the circumference)
I couldn't answer those questions. I actually asked the question to ''Dr.Math'' and they sent me back this answer:
All three answers are equally valid. It depends entirely on how
you 'define' a random chord. It is a classic illustration of the
fact that 'randomness' is not a completely fixed concept
like 'length' or 'weight'. The difficulty in getting a random sample
from a population is well-known and accounts for the many occasions
that poll ratings fail to predict the actual outcome. The usual
definition of a random sample includes the requirement that EVERY
member of the population has an equal chance of being in the sample.
It is not easy to decide between the three methods of defining a
random chord which is the most valid.
Which seems to be about what you are saying.
I've never had any course in probabilities and statistics, and so when I happen to do problems like these I go with my intuition. This is a case where the reality of the problem was counter-intuitive; randomness isn't just 'randomness', and defining it in different ways will lead to different results all equally valid.
But the question still remains for me: how can we know which one is more valid ? If we can extend the survey analogy, there should be only one actual outcome in reality. How can we know which one it will be ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by cavediver, posted 01-23-2011 4:24 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
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