|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: Potential falsifications of the theory of evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl writes in message 566 "What in the above falsifies evolution?"
Shapiro writes:
The point of this discussion is that our current knowledge of genetic change is fundamentally at variance with neo-Darwinist postulates. We have progressed from the Constant Genome, subject only to random, localized changes at a more or less constant mutation rate, to the Fluid Genome, subject to episodic, massive and non-random reorganizations capable of producing new functional architectures. Inevitably, such a profound advance in awareness of genetic capabilities will dramatically alter our understanding of the evolutionary process I interpret this to mean that he is questioning the theory of evolution as per the modern interpretation.I am not saying that evolution is false, only that the theory as stated today may be wrong per Dr. Shapiro. I think your question what above falsifies evolution?, is too broad, My query is what may falsify the current theory of evolution, not that evolution has and continues to occur. The basic question is How has and does it occur.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
coyote writes,
And perhaps you as a creationist should realize that this "fine tuning or even major adjustments" will most likely only make the theory of evolution stronger. It will not be evidence of creationism; it will be the opposite. Why do you bring creationists into your agruments? If the theory needs adjustments, then it needs adjustments. What the future holds after adjustments we will then be able to attempt to determine what we will learn from the adjustments. Perhaps we will learn that "evolution" is indeed programmed through information in the cells. Then you may have to face the fact that , Yes, there was a creation event. I can live by Anthony Flew's statement "We must follow the argument wherever it leads." Edited by shadow71, : No reason given. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Shadow wrote,
How do you interpret the statement that "...that cells have molecular computing networks which process information about internal operations and about the external enviroment to make DECISIONS controlling growth, movent, and differentiation... This clearly speaks of decision making processes . Razd replied,
In the same way that the black box soda machine has a decision making process, responding to a variety of different inputs with a variety of response outputs that have been tried in the past, and where the successful trial offspring survived. One of these is increased rate of mutation, another may be to increase reproduction, and another may be to limit increased mutations to segments that are not life threatening. It does not come up with novel new solutions to brand new input situations, and it does not decide or direct what mutations would be best. My question is, Does this show that there is a program in the cells that activate responses, other than by a random process? It appears that the cells have computer like information that activitvates responses to stresses etc., clearly not a random, non programmed event. If this is correct, what effect does that have on the the current theory of evolution?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Jar writes,
Even if there was some creation events (which is pretty much what everyone thinks) it still adds no support for a god, God or GOD. Well then we would have to find out what was behind the creation event. I would not think it would be nature, because nature woud not be in existence before the creation event. Perhaps it could be Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennett, but I would put my money on God.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
jar writes,
So far EVERY cause we have EVER found for ANYTHING has been natural. If it is supernatural, then it is not natural then it is not something that we can even study. Can you tell me what is the cause of of Random Mutation?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
razd writes,
Then you are equivocating between neo-Darwinism and the modern interpretation of the theory of evolution, in spite of being told several times that these are not the same thing. Let me see if I can make it a little easier for you - the modern interpretation of the theory of evolution can be simply stated as: The Theory of Evolution is that the process of evolution is sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it.This means that everything we know about how evolution occurs, and everything we know about the diversity of life, is part of the modern interpretation of the theory of evolution. This includes Darwinism. This includes neo-Darwinism. This includes all the current knowledge within the field of biological evolution about all the mechanism involved in the process of evolution. This also means that any new knowledge that is confirmed and validated by the scientific process concerning new mechanisms for the process of evolution, whether for specific organisms or general, will be incorporated into the theory of evolution, and that when that is done, we can "redefine" the modern theory of evolution to be: The Theory of Evolution is that the process of evolution is sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it.Enjoy. Then according to your reasoning the theory of evolution as we know it can never be falsified because any new mechanisms we discover are automatically attributed to our theory of evolution. For example if "random mutation" is found to be unable to change information in the cell to to allow one species to evolve into another species, would your theory of evolution still be true? I am not equivocating between neo-Darwinism and the modern interpretation of the theory of evolution. I am saying that James Shapiro based upon his research wrote: "hereditary variation arises from the NON-RANDOM action of built-in biochemical systems that mobilize DNA and carry out natural genetic engineering." (My emphasis} If that is accurrate then randon mutation does not account for the process of evolution. Does not account for evolution from one species to another, macro evolution.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
the following is my reply to molbiogirl posts 601& 587. Percy's post 586, taq's posts 588 & 589.
My interpretation of James A. Shapiro’s natural Genetic Engineering theoryShapiro writes: The theory of evolution as expressed today has shortcomings that are not addressed or are ignored by the majority of evolutionary scientists. My understanding of Shapiro’s position. Molecular biology has discovered biochemical processes in living cells that shed a new light on the modern theory of evolution. Some of those processes are:Reverse transcription Posttranscriptional RNA processing Catalytic RNA Genome-wide transcription Posttranslation protein modifications DNA proofreading and repairs From these and other findings he has found inter alia;The cell is a multilevel information processing entity and the genome is only part of the entire interactive complex. Mobile DNA movements rather than replication errors serve as the primary engines of protein evolution. Horizontal DNA transfer between species and between the 3 high kingdoms of living cells may be a major driver of evolutionary novelty. Genomic data documents the fundamental importance of horizontal transfer in the evolution of bacterial and archaeal genomes. There is growing evidence for intercellular and interkingdom horizontal transfer events in the evolution of eukaryotic genomes. Genome sequencing introduced a major process of rapid and multicharacter change into the established evolutionary record which has been largely ignored by the neo-Darwinian followers. Whole genome doublings is another evolutionary process out side the Darwinian perspective that occurs suddenly, within a single generation, and simultaneously affects multiple phenotypic character. Synthetic speciation takes place rapidly after hybridization rather than slowly following repeated selections, as predicted by conventional theory. Hybridization in the Darwin’s finches in the Galapagos Islands, long a paradigm of gradualist evolution, leads to abrupt, unpredictable changes in beak shape. The virtual infinite dimensions of possible genome configurations has too low a probability of success via the Darwinian gradualism which is too slow and indeterminate a process to account for natural adaptations even allowing for long periods of random mutation and selection. Evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering employs a combinatorial search process based upon DNA modules that already possess functionality. Hereditary variation arises from the non-random action of built-in biochemical systems that mobilize DNA and carry out natural genetic engineering. The Shapiro view of the21st century assumes a major role for the kind of cellular sensitivities and genomic responses asserted by McClintock. Namely the ability cells to regulate expression and restructure their genome according to the needs of the cells, and.Her statement that the genome is a highly sensitive organ of the cell that monitors genomic activities and corrects common errors, senses unusual and unexpected events and responds to them. Those four areas of molecular discovery are important to his 21 Century theory of evolution namely:Genome organization Cellular repair capabilities Mobile genetic elements Cellular information processing. My interpretation of his writings lead me to the following interpretation of his writings. That the three issues that are central to the formulation of a theory of evolutionary change are:Descent with modification Origins of hereditary variation The operation of natural selection. He accepts descent with modification, but does not accept natural selection and random mutation to the degree that the modern evoluntionists believe. .I believe he is formulating a theory that does not rely on Random Mutation as a primary player in the evolving of organisms. That Random mutation and selection have a low probability of success and that the molecular findings above are the major mechanisms for the evolutionary process. That gradualism is not a major factor in evolutionary change, but rather the novel adaptations that require changes at multiple locations in the genome can arise within a single generation and can produce progeny expressing all the changes at once. As to natural selection, I beleve he finds it not as important as natural genetic engineering selection. So I am of the opinion that Shapiro is expressing the opinion that the information processing and regulatory actions taken by the cells are an expression that there is intelligence in the cells and this is the major factor in evolution. In short Shapiro, in my opinion, is of the opinion based on his scientific findings and the findings of many others that organisms posses NATURAL GENETIC ENGINEERING SYSTEMS that are basically the major causes of evolution, both micro and more so macro evolution. As to how these systems arose, Shapiro stated in the ID forum discussed in our posts: All existing living organisms possess natural genetic engineering capabilities. So they must be pretty fundamental. Any self-organizing evolving system has to have the capacity to alter its information store. That’s what they do. Where they come from in the first place is not a question we can realistically answer now, any more than we can explain the origin of the first cell. The long and short of it for me is that Shapiro’s Theory is somewhere between the Modern Darwinian theory of evolution and the Intelligent Design theory of evolution. Hope this helps in answering your questions Molbiogirl and Percy, and clarifies my position with all on this board Edited by shadow71, : No reason given. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
miolbiogirl writes,
For example, when I google your assertion that Shapiro thinks "Mobile DNA movements rather than replication errors serve as the primary engines of protein evolution.", I find this: shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro.2010.MobileDNA.pdf In the future, please provide your cites. My, My are we getting defensive. When I quoted Shapiro in the past I was told, tell us what he meant, we don't want his quotes. I have cited all of his papers on this board. Now in regards to your above quoted post. Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from "Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century." James A. Shapiro "Mobile DNA movements, rather than replications errors, serve as the primary engines of protein evolution." page 3 bottom right column. What did you find different? That I forgot the comma's?If you want cites of all the quotes I will give them to you. I am in the process of reviewing your reply and it is full of nonsense. I will provide a full answer as time permits. But there is no question Shapiro is of the opinion that the modern theory is not acceptable. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
percy writes,
Shapiro does not believe cells are intelligent in the same way that humans are intelligent. This has been explained to you over and over nine ways from Sunday. Where did I say in my post "human intelligence"?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
perch writes,
The answer to your question is, "Yes." If it were discovered that random mutations cannot accumulate to cause species change then the underlying mechanism behind the origin of species would be gone, and evolution as we know it would be falsified. Given what we already know through observation and experiments this is about as likely as discovering that the sun really does orbit the Earth. Thank you for your honesty Shapiro in The Boston Review in 2006 wrote;
How all of this modularity, complexity, and integration arose and changed during the history of life on earth is a central evolutionary question. Localized random mutation, selection operating "one gene at a time" (John Maynard Smith's formulation), and gradual modification of individual functions are unable to provide satisfactory explanations for the molecular data, no matter how much time for change is assumed. There are simply too many potential degrees of freedom for random variability and too many interconnections to account for. Since my interpretations are invalid, how would you interpert this quotation from Shapiro? I interpret it to mean random mutation and selection cannot account for all the modularity, complexity, and integration that arose and changed during the history of life.. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Thanks Taq for your very information. I have a question for you.
Taq wrote;
Finally, mutations are random with respect to fitness, even in the examples given by Shapiro and in line with neo-Darwinian theory. Shapiro correctly argues that mutations are not random with respect to position in the genome or through time. The rate of mutation does change through time and there are mutation hotspots. However, this doesn't change the fact that the result of these mutations is beneficial, neutral, and detrimental. You still need selection of these mutations in order to drive evolution. Shapiro wrote in the Boston Review 2006; "How all of this modularity, complexity, and integration arose and changed during the history of life on earth is a central evolutionary question. Localized random mutation, selection operating 'one gene at a time' (John Maynard Smith's formulation),and gradual modification of individual functions are unable to provide satisfactory explanation for the molecular data, no matter how much time for change is assumed. There are too many potential degrees of freedom for random variability and too many interconnections to account for." Does this quote agree with what you posted above?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl writes;
shadow, you pulled quotes word for word out of Shapiro's Mobile DNA paper without citing him. That's a no no. It's called plagiarism. First of all I said in the post " Shapiro writes," and then placed findings that I relied on in the post as you asked me to do. . plagiarism is defined as: the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them on as one's own. So I accept your apology for calling me a plagiarist. molbiogirl further wrote;
And finally. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Shapiro thinks that "the modern theory isn't acceptable". So what? Stephen Jay Gould didn't think that the modern theory was "acceptable" -- so he proposed punctuated equilibrium. But when punctuated equilibrium or natural genetic engineering (or any other new idea) gains acceptance, it doesn't: ...mean that the theory of evolution by natural selection is wrong. ...mean that the central conclusion of evolutionary theory no longer holds. ...negate previous work on how evolution by natural selection works. ...imply that evolution only happens in rapid bursts or thru natural genetic engineering. You seem to think that random mutation and natural slection as per the modern theory are synonymous with Shapiro's "Natural Genetic Engineering", that is not so.Shapiro explicit states in many writings including this quote from the Boston Review paper; "The possibility of a non-Darwinian scientific theory of evolution is virtually never considered. In my comments, then, I propose to sketch some developments in contemporary life science that suggest shortcomings in orthodox evolutionary theory and open the door to very different ways of formulating questions about the evolutionary process. After a discussion of technical advances in our views about genome organization and the mechanisms of genetic change, I will focus on a growing convergence between biology and information science which offers the potential for scientific investigation of possible intelligent cellular action in evolution." That I suggest, again, is evidence that Shapiro does not fully agree with the modern theory of evolution of random mutation and natural selection.In the least he is discussing a built in information system in the cell. Edited by shadow71, : correct typo's
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Give me the statements you want cites to and I will give you the cites.
Are you suggesting any of those statements are changed from what Shapiro said? Do you think I am making them up?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Message 648 of 648 (602361)
01-27-2011 5:10 PM Reply to: Message 646 by shadow71 01-27-2011 5:01 PM ________________________________________ Cites _________________________ molbiogirl writes; _______________ This butchered mess, shadow. The cell is a multilevel information processing entity and the genome is only part of the entire interactive complex. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James A. Shapiro Mobile DNA movements rather than replication errors serve as the primary engines of protein evolution. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James A. Shapiro Horizontal DNA transfer between species and between the 3 high kingdoms of living cells may be a major driver of evolutionary novelty. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James A. Shapiro, not a quote, but summary. Genomic data documents the fundamental importance of horizontal transfer in the evolution of bacterial and archaeal genomes. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James A. Shapiro, not a quote, but a summary. There is growing evidence for intercellular and interkingdom horizontal transfer events in the evolution of eukaryotic genomes. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James A. Shapiro, not a quote but a summary. Genome sequencing introduced a major process of rapid and multicharacter change into the established evolutionary record which has been largely ignored by the neo-Darwinian followers. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st Century) James A. Shapiro, not a quote but a summary. Whole genome doublings is another evolutionary process out side the Darwinian perspective that occurs suddenly, within a single generation, and simultaneously affects multiple phenotypic character. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21 century) James A. Shapiro, summary not a quote. Synthetic speciation takes place rapidly after hybridization rather than slowly following repeated selections, as predicted by conventional theory. (Mobile DNA and evolution in thje 21st century) James A. Shapiro partial quote. Hybridization in the Darwin’s finches in the Galapagos Islands, long a paradigm of gradualist evolution, leads to abrupt, unpredictable changes in beak shape. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21 st century) James A. Shapiro, not a quote but a summary. The virtual infinite dimensions of possible genome configurations has too low a probability of success via the Darwinian gradualism which is too slow and indeterminate a process to account for natural adaptations even allowing for long periods of random mutation and selection. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21 st century) James A. Shapiro, not a quote but a summary. Evolutionary change by natural genetic engineering employs a combinatorial search process based upon DNA modules that already possess functionality. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James A.Shapiro, not a quote but a summary. Hereditary variation arises from the non-random action of built-in biochemical systems that mobilize DNA and carry out natural genetic engineering. ( Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James A. Shapiro, a quote. And this.That Random mutation and selection have a low probability of success and that the molecular findings above are the major mechanisms for the evolutionary process. My summary from Shapiro's writings. That gradualism is not a major factor in evolutionary change, but rather the novel adaptations that require changes at multiple locations in the genome can arise within a single generation and can produce progeny expressing all the changes at once. (Mobile DNA and evolution in the 21st century) James. A. Shapiro, a quote as noted. As to natural selection, I beleve he finds it not as important as natural genetic engineering selection.My summary. . Here are you cititations Molbiogirl, now I would like to know if you really believe that Shapiro belives that random mutation and natural selection are the prime movers of evolution?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2964 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
molbiogirl writes;
Let's leave aside RM & NS for a moment. Yes I'm sure you would love to leave RM & NS aside for awhile, but those are the major components that Shapiro and others are saying do not hold up. Have you read Dr. Guenther Wizanty? Schaack, Gilbert, and Feschotte? Adam S. Wilkins? I won't bother you with quotes, because I know How much they bother you. Edited by shadow71, : spelling
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024