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Author Topic:   Kent Hovind
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 324 of 349 (628969)
08-14-2011 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Butterflytyrant
08-14-2011 11:25 AM


Re: A few points on logic...
It sounds like you are saying that our mere existence is evidence of a designer and this makes it a warranted assumption. How does our existence prove a designer exactly? It does not. The only thing our existence proves is that we exist. Nothing more.
Wrong. The nature of existence is such that it, all that we know of it, is subject to decay. It gains and it losses its properties. All that we know of existence is that all items are contingent on thier individual existence to that of something else. So on and so forth
these characteristics would not be consistent with an infinite universe, unless it could be demonstrated that some properties do not fall into that category, correct
Therefore existence itself attests to the fact of a designer and one that that would himself be contingent on nothing
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-14-2011 11:25 AM Butterflytyrant has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Coyote, posted 08-14-2011 10:53 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 326 of 349 (629027)
08-15-2011 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Coyote
08-14-2011 10:53 PM


Re: A few points on logic... NOT!
I find your "logic" as well as your evidence to be lacking.
Then your not paying very close attention
Where is this "decay" you refer to? Is this entropy, or is this a result of "the fall?" If the latter, you should realize that "the fall" is a religious myth, not something substantiated by empirical evidence. If the former, dealing with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that does not apply to the degree you would have it do so in an open system, that is, one obtaining energy from the outside.
From the outside of what and what outside?
The rest of your post is a catechism, not a scientifically reasoned or supported argument. You just left off the "Amen!" at the end.
hardly a catechism, its a valid observation and argument.
Isnt it interesting how the old school arguments are still just as valid and applicable
Uncaused first cause and unmoved mover.
it stands to REASON. If all properties we are aware of tend twords decay and chaos and are contingent for thier existence on something else and something else, you will eventually arrive at a source dependant on nothing but itself
It would be unreasonable to reason that this would be even more natural causes, with the same characteristics
The conclusion of an eternal and omnipotent deity would make the only rational sense
Unless you unlike Butterfly will explain Mr Hawking's findings that will remove these ever present principles that characterize existence
It seems there is really no other choice but God and design
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Coyote, posted 08-14-2011 10:53 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 327 of 349 (629134)
08-16-2011 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Coyote
08-14-2011 10:53 PM


Re: A few points on logic... NOT!
Coyote writes
Where is this "decay" you refer to? Is this entropy, or is this a result of "the fall?" If the latter, you should realize that "the fall" is a religious myth, not something substantiated by empirical evidence. If the former, dealing with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that does not apply to the degree you would have it do so in an open system, that is, one obtaining energy from the outside.
How does this information assist your position on open systems?
Entropy and Open Systems
by Henry Morris, Ph.D.
"The most devastating and conclusive argument against evolution is the entropy principle. This principle (also known as the Second Law of Thermodynamics) implies that, in the present order of things, evolution in the "vertical" sense (that is, from one degree of order and complexity to a higher degree of order and complexity) is completely impossible.
The evolutionary model of origins and development requires some universal principle which increases order, causing random particles eventually to organize themselves into complex chemicals, non-living systems to become living cells, and populations of worms to evolve into human societies. However the only naturalistic scientific principle which is known to effect real changes in order is the Second Law, which describes a situation of universally deteriorating order.
"This law states that all natural processes generate entropy, a measure of disorder"1
"Entropy, in short, is the measurement of molecular disorder. The law of the irreversible increase in entropy is a law of progressive disorganization, of the complete disappearance of the initial conditions."2
It can hardly be questioned that evolution is at least superficially contradicted by entropy. The obvious prediction from the evolution model of a universal principle that increases order is confronted by the scientific fact of a universal principle that decreases order. Nevertheless evolutionists retain faith that, somehow, evolution and entropy can co-exist, even though they don’t know how.
"In the complex course of its evolution, life exhibits a remarkable contrast to the tendency expressed in the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Where the Second Law expresses an irreversible progression toward increased entropy and disorder, life evolves continually higher levels of order. The still more remarkable fact is that this evolutionary drive to greater and greater order also is irreversible. Evolution does not go backward."3
"Back of the spontaneous generation of life under other conditions than now obtain upon this planet, there occurred a spontaneous generation of elements of the kind that still goes on in the stars; and back of that I suppose a spontaneous generation of elementary particles under circumstances still to be fathomed, that ended in giving them the properties that alone make possible the universe we know."4
"Life might be described as an unexpected force that somehow organizes inanimate matter into a living system that perceives, reacts to, and evolves to cope with changes to the physical environment that threatens to destroy its organization."5
When confronted directly with this problem (e.g., in creation/evolution debates), evolutionists often will completely ignore it. Some will honestly admit they do not know how to resolve the problem but will simply express confidence that there must be a way, since otherwise one would have to believe in supernatural creation. As Wald says:
"In this strange paper I have ventured to suggest that natural selection of a sort has extended even beyond the elements, to determine the properties of protons and electrons. Curious as that seems, it is a possibility worth weighing against the only alternative I can imagine, Eddington's suggestion that God is a mathematical physicist."6
Some evolutionists try to solve the problem by suggesting that the entropy law is only statistical and that exceptions can occur, which would allow occasional accidental increases in order. Whether this is so, however, is entirely a matter of faith. No one has ever seen such an exception, and science is based upon observation!
"There is thus no justification for the view, often glibly repeated, that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is only statistically true, in the sense that microscopic violations repeatedly occur, but never violations of any serious magnitude. On the contrary, no evidence has ever been presented that the Second Law breaks down under any circumstances."7
By far the majority of evolutionists, however, attempt to deal with this Second Law argument by retreating to the "open system" refuge. They maintain that, since the Second Law applies only to isolated systems (from which external sources of information and order are excluded), the argument is irrelevant. The earth and its biosphere are open systems, with an ample supply of energy coming in from the sun to do the work of building up the complexity of these systems. Furthermore, they cite specific examples of systems in which the order increases, (such as the growth of a crystal out of solution, the growth of a seed or embryo into an adult plant or animal, or the growth of a small Stone Age population into a large complex technological culture) as proof that the Second Law does not inhibit the growth of more highly-ordered systems.
Arguments and examples such as these, however, are specious arguments. It is like arguing that, since NASA was able to put men on the moon, therefore it is reasonable to believe cows can jump over the moon! Creationists have for over a decade been emphasizing that the Second Law really applies only to open systems, since there is no such thing as a truly isolated system. The great French scientist and mathematician, Emil Borel, has proved this fact mathematically, as acknowledged by Layzer:
"Borel showed that no finite physical system can be considered closed."8
Creationists have long acknowledged (in fact emphasized) that order can and does increase in certain special types of open systems, but this is no proof that order increases in every open system! The statement that "the earth is an open system" is a vacuous statement containing no specific information, since all systems are open systems.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics could well be stated as follows: "In any ordered system, open or closed, there exists a tendency for that system to decay to a state of disorder, which tendency can only be suspended or reversed by an external source of ordering energy directed by an informational program and transformed through an ingestion-storage-converter mechanism into the specific work required to build up the complex structure of that system."
If either the information program or the converter mechanism is not available to that "open" system, it will not increase in order, no matter how much external energy surrounds it. The system will proceed to decay in accordance with the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Criteria for Increasing Order CRITERIA S Y S T E M
GROWING PLANT BUILDING CONSTRUCTION
1. Open System
2. Available Energy
3. Directing Program
4. Conversion Mechanism Seed
Sun
Genetic Code
Photosynthesis Materials
Sun
Blueprint
Workmen
To cite special cases (such as the seed, for which the genetic code and the conversion mechanism of photosynthesis are available) is futile, as far as "evolution" is concerned, since there is neither a directing program nor a conversion apparatus available to produce an imaginary evolutionary growth in complexity of the earth and its biosphere.
It is even more futile to refer to inorganic processes such as crystallization as evidence of evolution. Even Prigogine recognizes this:
"The point is that in a non-isolated system there exists a possibility for formation of ordered, low-entropy structures at sufficiently low temperatures. This ordering principle is responsible for the appearance of ordered structures such as crystals as well as for the phenomena of phase transitions. Unfortunately this principle cannot explain the formation of biological structures. The probability that at ordinary temperatures a macroscopic number of molecules is assembled to give rise to the highly-ordered structures and to the coordinated functions characterizing living organisms is vanishingly small. The idea of spontaneous genesis of life in its present form is therefore highly improbable, even on the scale of the billions of years during which prebiotic evolution occurred."9
Thus the highly specialized conditions that enable crystals to form and plants and animals to grow have nothing whatever to do with evolution. These special conditions themselves (that is, the marvelous process of photosynthesis, the complex information programs in the living cell, even the electrochemical properties of the molecules in the crystal, etc.) could never arise by chance their own complexity could never have been produced within the constraints imposed by the Second Law. But without these, the crystal would not form, and the seed would never grow.
But what is the information code that tells primeval random particles how to organize themselves into stars and planets, and what is the conversion mechanism that transforms amoebas into men? These are questions that are not answered by a specious reference to the earth as an open system! And until they are answered, the Second Law makes evolution appear quite impossible.
To their credit, there are a few evolutionists (though apparently very few) who recognize the critical nature of this problem and are trying to solve it. Prigogine has proposed an involved theory of "order through fluctuations" and "dissipative structures."10
But his examples are from inorganic systems and he acknowledges that there is a long way to go to explain how these become living systems by his theory.
"But let us have no illusions, our research would still leave us quite unable to grasp the extreme complexity of the simplest of organisms."11
Another recent writer who has partially recognized the seriousness of this problem is Charles J. Smith.
"The thermodynamicist immediately clarifies the latter question by pointing out that the Second Law classically refers to isolated systems which exchange neither energy nor matter with the environment; biological systems are open and exchange both energy and matter. This explanation, however, is not completely satisfying, because it still leaves open the problem of how or why the ordering process has arisen (an apparent lowering of the entropy), and a number of scientists have wrestled with this issue. Bertalanffy (1968) called the relation between irreversible thermodynamics and information theory one of the most fundamental unsolved problems in biology. I would go further and include the problem of meaning and value."12
Absence of Ordering Criteria in Evolution CRITERIA TO
BE SATISFIED S Y S T E M
FIRST LIVING MOLECULE POPULATION OF COMPLEX ORGANISMS
1. Open System
2. Available Energy
3. Directing Program
4. Conversion Mechanism Complex Inorganic Molecule
Sun
None
None Population of Simple Organisms
Sun
None (Natural Selection?)
None (Natural Selection?)
Whether rank-and-file evolutionists know it or not, this problem they have with entropy is thus "one of the most fundamental unsolved problems in biology." It is more than a problem, in fact, it is a devastating denial of the evolution model itself. It will continue to be so until evolutionists can demonstrate that the vast imagined evolutionary continuum in space and time has both a program to guide it and an energy converter to empower it. Otherwise, the Second Law precludes it.
It is conceivable, though extremely unlikely that evolutionists may eventually formulate a plausible code and mechanism to explain how both entropy and evolution could co-exist. Even if they do, however, the evolution model will still not be as good as the creation model. At the most, such a suggestion would constitute a secondary modification of the basic evolution model. The latter could certainly never predict the Second Law.
The evolution model cannot yet even explain the Second Law, but the creation model predicts it! The creationist is not embarrassed or perplexed by entropy, since it is exactly what he expects. The creation model postulates a perfect creation of all things completed during the period of special creation in the beginning. From this model, the creationist naturally predicts limited horizontal changes within the created entities (e.g., variations within biologic kinds, enabling them to adapt to environmental changes). If "vertical" changes occur, however, from one level of order to another, they would have to go in the downward direction, toward lower order. The Creator, both omniscient and omnipotent, made all things perfect in the beginning. No process of evolutionary change could improve them, but deteriorative changes could disorder them.
Not only does the creation model predict the entropy principle, but the entropy principle directly points to creation. That is, if all things are now running down to disorder, they must originally have been in a state of high order. Since there is no naturalistic process which could produce such an initial condition, its cause must have been supernatural. The only adequate cause of the initial order and complexity of the universe must have been an omniscient Programmer, and the cause of its boundless power an omnipotent Energizer. The Second Law of Thermodynamics, with its principle of increasing entropy, both repudiates the evolution model and strongly confirms the creation model."
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Coyote, posted 08-14-2011 10:53 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by NoNukes, posted 08-16-2011 4:41 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 329 by Pressie, posted 08-16-2011 6:44 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 333 of 349 (629370)
08-17-2011 9:07 AM


Summation
In keeping with a part of the theme of this thread, it has been intimated that not only Kent Hovind, but most creationist use unethical tactics during debates.
There is no need to believe this is true, nor is there any need to assume the polemist on the creation side is anything but honest and that thier intentions are honorable
In this vain, I thought it would be appropriate in summation to rehearse some of the tactics, we, I, believe, secular fundamental Humanist use in these same debates.
First and foremost I notice that they have the unique ability to change the meanings of simple terms and words, making them more complicated, thereby disallowing information that does not fit into thier framework of understanding
A couple of examples are the words science and evidence. Science they say has to be limited to thier strict definition,or its not science. This is of course nonsense,. simply because any investigation into the natural world by scientist on either side is of course science
When applying the word evidence to creationist they insist that there must be direct evidence to establish the position as valid, which is actually no problem if the word is used acccurately and applied accross the board, its is not
When refering to the TOE, however, they insist thier is direct evidence, even if, like creationism,no one actually wittnessed that event. They change the nature of the word evidence to suit thier purposes and demand and insist that we provide what they are not required to establish the position as valid
We rely on order, law and purpose to describe and establish the evidence for a designer. This they say is not direct evidence. Amazingly, they turn right around, having not wittnessed the actual event of Evolution and insist that the physical evidence they use as establishing the TOE, direct evidence. The tactic they employ in this instance should be obvious
They change the rules to suit thier purposes
Akin to this position, is thier ablity to be very intolerable of anyone that disagrees with thier positions, which very quickly translates into sarcasm, insults, abuse, belittling, profanity, during these discussions
The reason, I believe, they use these tactics during these discussions is to disway thier opponent from participating further in the exchange. These types of tactics are more characteristic during the discussions online, but one only need read any thread where a theist involves himself, to wittness this type of tactic on thier part.
Thirdly Ive noticed that they argue a position as if the question of the topic of creation and evolution has been settled, beyond any doubt, intimating and often reffering to thier opponent as possessing some sort of mental inabilty, not to see the position as do they.
Amazingly, they make a faulty distinction between apologetics and the Scientific Method. They seem not to have the ability to recognize that the word apologetics is just another method of investigation
This sharp distinction and unwarrented characterization of the word apologetics is to create prejudice against a position they reject. Just another tactic on thier part. They provide no reason to believe that apologetics is any less an investigation than thier Scientific Method
They play the dumb card on such words as eternal, pretending to not know what and how a person is using that concept
The list Im sure could go on and on on both sides about unethical tactics, accused of both sides.
Amazingly, they have the inability to see the difference between direct and indirect implication. They insist that there are only evidences of natural causes. When pressed on this point they insist that there implication is not extended to the cause of everything.
They dont seem to understand that when in a discussion about the why and how of existence, claiming evidences of natural causes would naturally extend to that of existence itself. If one knows there is only evidence of natural causes, then indirectly they are claiming to know that the causes for existence itself are natural as well. Of course they have no idea or evidence for the why and how of the Big Bang, which would make thier claim to know of natural causes only an assertion
they insist that there is evidence of natural causes only, when in fact there is only evidence of existence itself. Wittnessing an immediate event of causation is not the same as knowing the cause of existence itself, if one was not here to witness the actual event.
In short however, it should be obvious to any thinking person, that where an actual event is not witnnessed, ie, creation or TOE, there is no direct evidence. However, it is not necessary for evidence to be direct for there to be evidence at all.
In short it should be obvious that if indirect evidence is used to establish the TOE, as is characterized by the fac that no one wittnessed the event and much of its tenets are still disputed, then the physical evidence that establishes creation or design, order law, purpose and design, are actually evidence as well, of a designer.
The positions are on equal footing, the evidence is of the same nature and both use the physical world for the conclusions
Creationism is a scientific evaluation and a logical proposition, neither of which, intially, have anything to do with religion or the mystical contemplation
Creationism is a valid observation of only two logical positions, which makes it even more plausible and probable given the contingent nature of the universe
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Panda, posted 08-17-2011 1:32 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 335 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-18-2011 10:44 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 336 of 349 (629640)
08-19-2011 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by Butterflytyrant
08-18-2011 10:44 PM


Re: Summation
Butterfly, I got the impression real quick (now I know for sure) you understood nothing about debate, especially summations
You CANNOT respond to a summation, this is a simple part of the polemic process. Admin made it very clear in his message
I did not respond in detail to your very long winded post because it was disjointed and random
The point of not responding to a summation, is that I dont get a chance to respond to your comments,which involve new arguments and assertion
What Panda did was nothing short of Plagairsm
Butterfly, you cant respond, especially in detail, as you did to summations, knothead
Id be happy to address and refute any of the very vauge and fallacious points you have brought up in another thread if you so desire and admin approves
Dawn Bertot
{I agree with much if not all of what was said in this message. And, NO REPLIES to this message. - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : The stuff in red.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : First "this" had been "thing".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-18-2011 10:44 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-19-2011 2:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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