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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 88 of 716 (703854)
07-30-2013 6:46 AM


A thorough exegesis with other propecies...
We need to revisit Gen 22:13 and see the meaning behind the strange and once perplexing idea that God would have Abraham, the ultimate father of Israel, the nation, offer up the lamb of his only son, but follow that by picking a grown adult sheep to follow through:
Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a ram, (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the ram, (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).
Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 116 of 716 (704054)
08-02-2013 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
07-30-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
If you look at the requirements of being THE Messiah found in the Old Testament, Jesus is not The Messiah.
Then was he the Elijah, which is SPECIFICALLY stated in the Bible about "the one who comes" according to Mal 4:6, as John asked of Jesus?
Matthew 11:3
And asked Him, Are You the One Who was to come, or should we keep on expecting a different one?
Was Christ the Elijah, returned in 32AD?
They both did the same miracles, which was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back.
Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.
Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.
Both are said to have had miraculous births.
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 2:19 PM jar has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 117 of 716 (704055)
08-02-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
07-30-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
If you look at the requirements of being THE Messiah found in the Old Testament, Jesus is not The Messiah.
How about when we look at the Jewish requirements?
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5849-eschatology
The Messiah will furthermore win the heathen by the spirit of wisdom and righteousness which rests upon him (Sibyllines, iii. 780; Test. Patr., Levi, 18; Judah, 24; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xlix. 12 and Isa. xli. 1).
He will teach the nations the Noachian laws of humanity and make all men disciples of the Lord (Midr. Teh. xxi.).
The wonders of the time of Moses will be repeated on a larger scale in the time of the Messiah (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 8, after Micah vii. 15; comp. Hosea ii. 17; Targ.; Tan., Bo, ed. Buber, 6).
What Moses, the first redeemer, did is typical of what the Messiah as the last redeemer will do (Eccl. R. i. 9). The redemption will be in the same month of Nisan, (at the Passover seders), and in the same night (Mek., Bo, 14); the same pillar of cloud will lead Israel (Philo, "De Execrationibus," 8; Targ. Yer. to Isa. xxxv. 10):
the same plagues will be sent upon Israel's foes (Tan., Wa'era, ed. Buber, 15; Bo, 6, 19; Midr. Wayosha'; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 45);
the redeemer will ride on an "donkey" (Zech. ix. 9; comp. Ex. iv. 20);
manna, (transubstantiation?) will again be sent down from heaven (Ps. lxxii. 16; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 24; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 8);
and water rise from beneath by miraculous power (Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 18; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 15 et seq.; Eccl. R. i. 9).
Like Moses, the Messiah will disappear for 40 days after his appearance (Pesiḥ. R. 15; Pesiḥ. v. 49b, after Hosea v. 15).
The same number of people will be redeemed (Sanh. 111a)
and the Song of Moses be replaced by another song , (the New Testament)(Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 1; Rev. xv. 3).
But, like Moses, the Messiah will die (II Esd. l.c.); the opinion that the Messiah will not taste death (Midr. Teh. lxxii. 17) seems to be of later origin, and will be discussed in connection with the account of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph or Ephraim (see below).

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 119 of 716 (704068)
08-02-2013 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 7:44 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Why would I accept that assumption in an argument that is essentially about whether Judaism is correct?
...because what YOU say is an assumption, that Judaism is correct, is now a fact.
Israel, that Suffering Servant, now has manifested as the messiah which is collecting all the Jews for the great day of the King over them, (religiously), who opens "the Book sealed with the seven seals."
Amplified Bible
Rev 5:5 Then one of the elders of the heavenly Sanhedrin said to me, Stop weeping! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root (Source) of David, has won (has overcome and conquered)! He can open the scroll and break its seven seals!
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 7:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 11:23 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 128 of 716 (704103)
08-03-2013 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 11:23 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Israel, that Suffering Servant, now has manifested as the messiah
What? I though you were the messiah???
Apparently you were wrong on that, because HE (Israel) IS RISEN (i.e.; 1948)
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob, i.e.; all of the ten tribes that vanished, and the House of Judah, i.e.; the the Jews of today, the two witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).
Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).
Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the beginning of the construction of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years, i.e.; 1260) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).
Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth, (in Nazi Western Europe), shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send (supposed Christian seasonal) gifts one to another; because these two prophets, (the holy people of the book), tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Rev. 11:11 And after (the Holocaust), three and an half days (of years), the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah), and they stood upon their feet (in the land Promised); and great fear fell upon them (in Islam) which saw them, (the prophecy of the Fig Tree, blooming, Hosea 9:10, was fulfilled: [Matt 24:32].
Rev. 11:12 And (the survivors), they (collectively) heard (the commands of Zionism), a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither (to the prophecy fulfilled, where all Nations can see the Jew returned to the Holy Land once again.).
And they ascended up to heaven (by complying with the voice, gathering themselves together in this Zionism) in a cloud (of peoples from Western Europe and all the world); and their enemies (especially in Palestinia) beheld them.
Rev. 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, (i.e.; Israeli Statehood), and the tenth part of the city, (that first small piece of the Promised Land), fell (to the returning Jews), and in the earthquake (of their in-gathering) were slain of (Muslim) men, seven thousand:
and the remnant
(Islamic armies) were affrighted, and (all the Judaeo-Christian world) gave glory to the God of heaven (that prophecy of Daniel, 12:11-12, had been fulfilled as Christ had acknowledged and opposed the Maccabean interpretations).

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 130 of 716 (704144)
08-05-2013 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Eliyahu
08-04-2013 2:03 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Of course JC isn't God. There is only one God who IS one, and that is Y-H-W-H:
JC is consistently referred to as the son of god, which ONLY makes sense when he tells us in John 14:6, that he personifies Truth, the ideal, as a concept.
Truth is the savior for mankind, as I am certain you will agree.
Lies and fantasy world are the road to insanity and extinction.
But, by identifying the son, Jesus defines the long ineffable God of the Jews as Reality, the almighty Force behind the ever unfolding next frame of existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 2:03 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Eliyahu, posted 08-05-2013 3:36 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 132 by ramoss, posted 08-05-2013 9:51 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 134 of 716 (704243)
08-06-2013 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Eliyahu
08-05-2013 3:36 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
JC didn't fulfill his own prophecies to come back within one generation with pomp and power, to judge the world, so he was a false prophet.
Of course JC came back as he said and reigned over the church for 1000 years.
No one noticed because they were living inside Universal Christianity at the time and had no clue.
Only now, in Historical retrospect, is it clear that exactly 1000 years saw just the one Christianity over all the known Roman World which also housed even the Jews inside its gates:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (i.e.; Christianity, as mandated by Emperor Theo I, was the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, after 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (that was Roman Culture, including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands (those monks living in moneyless monastic environments);
and they, (the saints/apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since the appearance of the Gospels in 54AD, i.e., those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remains)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Eliyahu, posted 08-05-2013 3:36 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 3:28 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 135 of 716 (704244)
08-06-2013 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ramoss
08-05-2013 9:51 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Actually, that is totally and utterly incorrect. The term 'Son of God' was a well known idiom. It meant someone who was righteous.
In the New Testament it is clearly defined as an immortal, (Elijah), who is sired by God:
Mat 3:16
And Jesus, (the son of man), when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, (in this ritual of Plerosis), and he saw the Spirit of God, (the immortal Elijah), descending like a dove, and lighting upon him, (in a filling up by the indwelling spirit of Elijah):
Mat 3:17 (Then and only then does the son-of-God appear),
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This, (now), [B][U]is my beloved Son,[/B] (the immortal Elijah), in whom I am well pleased.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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