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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2763
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 76 of 638 (720263)
02-21-2014 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by dadman
02-21-2014 9:09 AM


Re: cheepers creepers
dadman writes:

the third element has nothing to do with matter or energy . . . good try though ... cheers

How do you know?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 9:09 AM dadman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 9:49 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
dadman
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


Message 77 of 638 (720265)
02-21-2014 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by 1.61803
02-21-2014 9:45 AM


cheepers creepers
How do you know?

well . . . as soon as I can get past the scoffers and mockers ... I "might" continue . . . it would make no sense to attempt to travel from point B to C .. until you first have traveled from point A to B ........ cheers

Edited by dadman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by 1.61803, posted 02-21-2014 9:45 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by frako, posted 02-21-2014 9:55 AM dadman has responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2778
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 78 of 638 (720268)
02-21-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by dadman
02-21-2014 9:49 AM


Re: cheepers creepers
well . . . as soon as I can get past the scoffers and mockers ... I "might" continue . . . it would make no sense to attempt to travel from point B to C .. until you first have traveled from point A to B ........ cheers

O please grate one do continue tell us what this mystical third element is, so we may start burning our science books.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 9:49 AM dadman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 10:03 AM frako has responded

    
dadman
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


Message 79 of 638 (720269)
02-21-2014 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by frako
02-21-2014 9:55 AM


pearls and swine
O please grate one do continue tell us what this mystical third element is

that's alright .. I don't waste time with those of puffed chests / grit teeth and clenched fists . . . . you have more important issues to deal with . . . later folks .... cheers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by frako, posted 02-21-2014 9:55 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by frako, posted 02-21-2014 10:23 AM dadman has not yet responded
 Message 82 by Taq, posted 02-21-2014 11:15 AM dadman has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2778
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 80 of 638 (720272)
02-21-2014 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by dadman
02-21-2014 10:03 AM


Re: pearls and swine
I don't waste time with those of puffed chests / grit teeth and clenched fists

No puffed chest here, no teeth gritting, and no clenched fist.

I am being a bit condescending though because there is no "third element". To me your sounding like besides heat and a bowl of water you need something else to get the water boiling, and im not telling you what it is.

Life in its basic form is a self replicating molecule, it evolves (changes) because the replication process is imperfect, mistakes are made, now if a mistake prevents the molecule from replicating there are no more molecules of that type, if a mistake makes it easier for the molecule to replicate there are more molecules of that type. Runn that processes for a few billion years with changing pressures (conditions of the environment, making it harder, easier for it to replicate) and you get complex life.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 10:03 AM dadman has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7519
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 81 of 638 (720286)
02-21-2014 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Drosophilla
02-21-2014 8:35 AM


Re: For the last time
As Dr Adequate points out the third element in Atomic Number order is Lithium - a white silvery alkali metal that is highly reactive and never found in free atomic form in nature but in compounds instead.

Lithium can be a bit reactive, so perhaps we should show concern when handling Lithium, but hardly scared.

Perhaps our new contributor is referring to Tritium (3H) instead. It does decay and produce high energy photons that could cause harm if Tritium is ingested, but not exactly the spookiest or most energetic of radioactive elements.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Drosophilla, posted 02-21-2014 8:35 AM Drosophilla has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7519
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 82 of 638 (720287)
02-21-2014 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by dadman
02-21-2014 10:03 AM


Re: pearls and swine
that's alright .. I don't waste time with those of puffed chests / grit teeth and clenched fists . . . . you have more important issues to deal with . . . later folks .... cheers

Perhaps dadman is following the advice of one of our previous Presidents.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 10:03 AM dadman has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3223
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 83 of 638 (720299)
02-21-2014 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
02-21-2014 9:38 AM


Re: science and life
RAZD writes:

Nope, and here's why:

1. you can't fear something that isn't defined -- do you fear the todal?

2. your "definition" or "description" of life is erroneous in the first two of your "elements" ... so it doesn't matter what you think or what you claim for your mystical "3rd element" ... it won't make your claim valid.

Rocks are made of matter and they are not life.

Falling water has energy and it is not life.

The sun converts matter into energy and it is not alive.

In science when you try to describe things you do so by those aspects that differentiate what you are describing from things that are not what you are describing. So far you have failed utterly to do this, because what you list applies to non-life as well as life. That makes it a dud, man.

Thus I don't expect your "3rd element" to be anything more than a personal fantasy that is rather irrelevant to the reality of what life is. Especially if you never get off your high horse and stop playing games.

Although I agree with your conclusion. I think your description of the issue is confusing.

I think dadman is trying to say that only things with all 3 of the elements would then be "life."
Therefore, he would agree with you that a rock and falling water and the sun are not life because they do not include the 3rd element (spiders).

Or maybe you meant that as well? I took your phrasing to imply that dadman is saying anything with any of those elements would be life. I think I read a bit of sarcasm into your phrasing, though. So maybe it just isn't there anyway.

Anyway... that was just a minor point because it's Friday.

I did, however, search around teh interwebs for the "3 elements of life" (also because: Friday.)

Almost everywhere agrees that these are "Oxygen, Hydrogen and Carbon." But... something tells me this isn't what dadman is after

So, I dug a bit more and the closest thing I could find was this:

The Breath of God: Identifying Spiritual Energy

Which seems to maybe, kinda indicate that the 3 elements of life are mass, energy and "the Breath of God."

Where the Breath of God is recognized by many different people as many different things:
-soul
-spirit
-psychic energy
-cosmic energy
-vital energy
-human aura
-paranormal energy
...

You know, anything and everything that "cannot be measured by current scientific standards" because scientists are stupid:

Victor J. Stenger, University of Colorado, in The Breath of God writes:

The common thread I see running through most of paranormal claims is the hypothesis that the universe contains a nonmaterial component that plays a significant role in the lives of humans--possibly providing the animating source for life and consciousness.5 This substance is often identified as some form of force or energy not presently registered in the scientific inventory.

Which does sound a lot like what dadman is after.
Also... it sounds like spiders. Not even scientists study spiders.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 9:38 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 1:18 PM Stile has responded
 Message 109 by herebedragons, posted 02-22-2014 9:24 AM Stile has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 84 of 638 (720305)
02-21-2014 1:10 PM


Everyone knows that the 3 elements are earth, wind, fire and water. Oh, bollocks, can't get anything right today.

I feel a Monty Python Sketch coming on

“No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise, fear and surprise; two chief weapons, fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency! Er, among our chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to the Pope! Um, I'll come in again...”

Time to shit or get off the pot Mr Dadman, before the riducule metre can't take any more.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 85 of 638 (720307)
02-21-2014 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Stile
02-21-2014 12:10 PM


Re: science and life
I think dadman is trying to say that only things with all 3 of the elements would then be "life."
Therefore, he would agree with you that a rock and falling water and the sun are not life because they do not include the 3rd element (spiders).

In which case this "3rd element" is what determines life and the other two are not necessary to the description: matter and energy do not differentiate life from non-life.

Which does sound a lot like what dadman is after.
Also... it sounds like spiders. Not even scientists study spiders.

Which is what I was alluding to in Message 57:

You'll probably say "intelligence" when you finally get around to it.

As this is an "Intelligent Design" thread in the "Intelligent Design" Forum ...

... and that still won't make his position any more scientific, if all he adds is some "spiritual essence" that cannot be measured or identified.

He's welcome to his opinion, but I doubt there will be any measurable effect on reality.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 12:10 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 2:04 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 88 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 2:25 PM RAZD has responded

  
dadman
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


Message 86 of 638 (720312)
02-21-2014 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by RAZD
02-21-2014 1:18 PM


okay: I'll give you all a hint
I just laid a book on the table ... it's 5 inches thick ... can someone name for me all the elements involved in all books in general .. here, let me start by claiming: paper (matter) / ink (matter) .. if you burn a book you might get some (energy) .. what else is involved ... maby glue (matter) ... what else (not related to matter or energy) .........
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 1:18 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 2:34 PM dadman has responded
 Message 108 by herebedragons, posted 02-22-2014 9:06 AM dadman has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(5)
Message 87 of 638 (720315)
02-21-2014 2:23 PM


Stop feeding the troll
He won't go away if we keep feeding him.

Sorry Phat am I being disrespectful to a new member? Tough shit, he is a nutjob and a troll.

Was a little curious about the 3rd element though because the 5th element is hot. I mean smoking.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 2:26 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 92 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:37 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3223
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 88 of 638 (720317)
02-21-2014 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by RAZD
02-21-2014 1:18 PM


Re: science and life
RAZD writes:

In which case this "3rd element" is what determines life and the other two are not necessary to the description: matter and energy do not differentiate life from non-life.

Ah, yes... good point.

He's welcome to his opinion, but I doubt there will be any measurable effect on reality.

Yeah, I'm not exactly on the edge of my seat either...

What would put me on the edge of my seat? Spiders.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 1:18 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:30 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
dadman
Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


Message 89 of 638 (720318)
02-21-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Theodoric
02-21-2014 2:23 PM


showing your ignorance ??
Challenge the message and not the messenger! .. The first person to resort to name calling and personal attacks automatically loses the debate! .. Personal attack is often the best indication that the writer knows his logic is flawed and therefore tries to deflect attention by attacking the opponent .. instead of attacking the arguments of the opponent

again . . . . I just laid a book on the table ... it's 5 inches thick ... can someone name for me all the elements involved in all books in general .. here, let me start by claiming: paper (matter) / ink (matter) .. if you burn a book you might get some (energy) .. what else is involved ... maybe glue (matter) ... what else (not related to matter or energy) ......... your answer would be ??

Edited by dadman, : No reason given.

Edited by dadman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Theodoric, posted 02-21-2014 2:23 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 90 of 638 (720319)
02-21-2014 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Stile
02-21-2014 2:25 PM


Re: science and life
What would put me on the edge of my seat? Spiders.

Yeah, back in the '60s you could get a regular corvair or a special fast version ... what made it special? It had a spider engine ...

Smokin.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 2:25 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 02-21-2014 3:55 PM RAZD has responded

  
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