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Author Topic:   Is faith the answer to cognitive dissonance?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 227 (558029)
04-29-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
04-29-2010 11:58 AM


Re: Committed
You and I seem to have fairly impassioned conversations about things which in other contexts we are both comparatively apathetic about then.
Yes. Here, with you, is the only time I've ever discussed that crap.
I think a creationist would say the same. I would suggest that the difference between you and they is the evidence upon which you rationalise that commitment.
What do you mean? I don't see myself actively rationalizing it...
They care whether the flud happened. You don't. My question to you is whether or not you are similarly committed to an evidential basis of any sort. And if so what it is.
Like how?
I'm a big science nerd and I'm committed to it as an evidential basis. I'm not sure what you're asking for.
I've experienced things that make me think the supernatural exists and from my science education I see that it'd be fairly easy for science to be missing it. Science is self contained and consitent, but the controls limit its scope.
We have a lab here that I work in investigating customer issues sometimes... There's things that I just cannot investigate scientifically, and things that we just cannot replicate. Although, we don't ever ascribe anything supernatural, except as jokes, but still we're not eliminating them as possibilities either.
What makes less sense is the argument that this personal preference should be taken into account by others when looking at the evidence.
Taken into account to the extent that, since there are smart people that actually believe this crap, it could be plausible.
You and I (and others) have argued ourselves blue in the face over the question of gods as being the product of human invention or otherwise. In the course of that extended discussion personal experiences of this sort have been consistently held up as a valid form of evidence that I (and others lacking faith) are accused of being too closed minded and pseudo-skeptical to accept.
I've said that I don't think you should take my subjective evidence as evidence for you... but I also don't think that you can discount it as being evidence for me. It'd be like you telling me that I don't really like chocolate.
What I cannot understand is why you would object to me stating that the evidence based conclusion is that the concept of god is most likely the product of human imagination.
Because I think that your argument is illogical, in that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, and I also don't think your premise is true that the evidence suggests the liklihood you're using.
But I've agreed that you can use that argument for some specific things...
And I don't thing that you shouldn't be finding your argument as convincing to yourself, and also its a good argument for positively disbelieving particular gods. But when its expanded to God, I think it falls apart and I don't agree that its a rational conclusion.
Unless you are in fact committed to personal subjective immaterial experiences as a valid form of evidence?
For me, I can't deny it but I don't expect you to buy it. Though, I don't think its very rational to just assume everybody must be crazy because science can't touch it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 04-29-2010 11:58 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Straggler, posted 04-29-2010 1:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 105 by Modulous, posted 04-29-2010 3:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 106 by Phage0070, posted 04-29-2010 5:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 227 (558040)
04-29-2010 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Straggler
04-29-2010 1:13 PM


Re: Committed
I am asking if there is an evidential basis to your beliefs which, if demonstrated to be invalid, would cause you cognitive dissonance.
What do you mean by an "evidential basis"? I don't know what kind of answers there are for that...
What evidential basis are you committed to? What are the alternatives?
Crazy? No. I think they/you are irrationally placing personal conviction and personal preference over objective evidence.
I think you throw the word 'irrational' around too loosely when you just mean "something I don't agree with"...
I don't have objective evidence that my personal conviction and personal preference are inaccurate so I'm not placing them over it and I don't see how you can actually determine the rationality of it.
So you consider belief itself to be a valid form of evidence?
Not just the belief itself, its that people have thought it out and investigated it and come to that conclusion that makes me think its more plausible. Like, some kid believing in Santa Claus does nothing, but a Buddhist monk that has spent his life studying Chi energy makes me think he might be on to something actual.
but I also don't think that you can discount it as being evidence for me.
I don't believe I ever have. In the same sense that I would not dispute your personal preference for chocolate over strawberry ice cream as being personally "evidenced".
Discounted in the sense that you think I'm irrational for accepting it as a reason to believe.
Although, we don't ever ascribe anything supernatural, except as jokes, but still we're not eliminating them as possibilities either.
I am not eliminating any possibilities either. I never have. In fact I have explicitly stated the very opposite of that which you are accusing me.
I wasn't saying that you were...
I've said that I don't think you should take my subjective evidence as evidence for you...
Good. Then what conclusion does the evidence available to me suggest?
Apparently that god doesn't exist. Although, I don't think the liklihood that you use logically follows from the evidence.
You don't think that (to put it in the broadest of senses) there is evidence that humanity is highly prone to erroneously invoking the unknowable to explain the unknown?
If they're unknowable then how have they been shown to be erroneuous? And if they've been shown to be erroneuos, then they weren't really unknowable.
But I've agreed that you can use that argument for some specific things...
Yes. Things that do not conflict with your own beliefs.
Well if I thought they were wrong then I wouldn't believe them. I'm not just resisting the argument because of the implications, I honestly don't find it convincing.
Would it cause you cognitive dissonance to accept that the objective evidence supports the argument that the concept of god is a human invention?
In the sense that I'd be accepting something that I didn't think was true, yes.
Granting that I was conviced by objective evidence that there was support for the argument that the concept of god is a human invention, I probably would not have CD because the argument having support doesn't necessitate that its accurate. It still wouldn't prove me wrong, so to speak. But I guess it depends on the strength of the argument. I guess a very strong argument for the non-existence of god would cause me some CD, assuming I wouldn't just change my belief and go back to being an atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Straggler, posted 04-29-2010 1:13 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2010 3:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 227 (558327)
04-30-2010 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Modulous
04-29-2010 3:19 PM


Re: Committed
The point is you are using naive empiricism and intuitive rationalism here. You had an experience, and you used your intuitive reasoning to conclude what that experience was.
It might be the case that cause of your experience is something that science does indeed 'miss' for whatever reasons. But science is just a formalised system of gathering evidence and applying reason. And science has shown that on the whole humans are pretty crap at intuitive reasoning under certain circumstances AND that they are prone to giving undue confidence in their intuitive conclusions.
So if you are 'committed to {science as an evidential basis.' then you have to conclude that relying on your perceptions of your experiences and your personal interpretations of them is prone to significant error.
Well, I'm no Positivist. And I realize I could be wrong. But all I have is what I experience. I suppose that I'm not committed to science as the sole evidential basis. Maybe I'm trusting myself too much... but it is what it is.
And that's what the religious people on these boards seem to be calling faith. Trust in their senses, in their gut feelings to a degree that science has shown is too far.
Not definitively, and I'm not buying it. Showing how I could easily have been mistaken is not saying I was.
To me though, a good deal of faith comes from allowing a personal experience with no understandable cause to be interpreted in an intuitive fashion almost entirely uncritically.
I don't think I've been entirely uncritical. Its as if your assuming I just jump to the conclusion willy-nilly from miniscule reasons. I know that it could easily have been mistaken, and I've thought about it and reconsidered. I've concluded that this physical realm in not all there is.
'Faith' is simply 'selective naivet' Where naive means 'believing uncritically an experience'. Calling it 'faith' makes it sound more palatable - indeed even noble. There are many times when this kind of faith is appropriate, but it shouldn't go unchecked. It is appropriate to engage the more analytical part of the mind to double check intuition's working because intuition is demonstrably bad at some tasks.
I can't argue with your feelings, or your memory CS - but I will argue that analytically you should be sceptical of the experiences you had. If you aren't - then you are not being committed to the science which strongly disagrees with you.
I don't totally disagree with you, and your characterization seems fairly accurate for a lot of it, but I don't think it necessarily means that I should be doubting myself here. And it kinda opens a slippery slope... Where do I draw the line? Is the sky really blue?
So you are either committed to science or merely mostly committed to science except when it is talking about your own failings. Maybe that's where the cognitive dissonance comes in?
Assuming you're right, then I'm probably merely mostly committed to science. If I accepted that I was failing, then I probaly would have CD from having to deny something that I thought was true. But in that sense, I'd be putting my faith in science... And still, the faith wouldn't be resulting from the CD, but the other way around. You did say:
I wouldn't say faith is about resolving cognitive dissonance. Any cognitive dissonance that might arise is its own affair.
and we agree on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Modulous, posted 04-29-2010 3:19 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2010 10:48 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 05-12-2010 6:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 227 (558330)
04-30-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Straggler
04-30-2010 3:56 AM


Re: Balance of Evidence
I'm about to walk out the door so I don't have time for a proper reply.
Is there any objective evidence at all in support of your theistic beliefs?
At all? I dunno. How do I know if an isolated experience was objective or not?
Is there any objective evidence at all in support of the conclusion that contradicts your theistic beliefs (e.g. god as the product of human invention)
I don't think so.
Straggler writes:
I am asking if there is an evidential basis to your beliefs which, if demonstrated to be invalid, would cause you cognitive dissonance.
What do you mean by an "evidential basis"?
The personal experiences that you cite as supporting your belief - Aside from your personal belief there is no more reason to attribute the cause of these experiences to god as there is to magic moonbeams, fluctuations in the matrix or indeed any other empirically unknowable scenario we could conceive of.
Do you accept this?
You didn't answer my questions:
quote:
What do you mean by an "evidential basis"? I don't know what kind of answers there are for that...
What evidential basis are you committed to? What are the alternatives?
Every shred of objective evidence available to us indicates that the universe operates without any need for supernatural intervention.
I don't agree with that.
Sorry, I gotta go....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Straggler, posted 04-30-2010 3:56 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Straggler, posted 05-01-2010 5:39 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 161 of 227 (722368)
03-20-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
03-20-2014 2:20 PM


Re: Blessed will be the honest skeptic
We can't assume that skeptics and atheists who demand the evidence will be any less blessed were they to die tomorrow having found none.
Sure, but that's not what Jesus said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Phat, posted 03-20-2014 2:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 227 (723076)
03-26-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
03-26-2014 12:25 PM


Re: Why Not?
A demonic trick would still be a miracle.
No, you don't get it.
A miracle is defined as the God of the Bible suspending the laws of nature. Anything else does not count as a miracle. Therefore, the only miracles are those recorded in the Bible as being from God.
See? Its perfectly circular, you cannot deny it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 03-26-2014 12:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by ringo, posted 03-26-2014 12:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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