Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,916 Year: 4,173/9,624 Month: 1,044/974 Week: 3/368 Day: 3/11 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is faith the answer to cognitive dissonance?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 156 of 227 (722351)
03-20-2014 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
04-27-2010 12:59 PM


Re: Rational Irrationality
Straggler writes:
Here at EvC I see two (very) broad churches.
There are those who say they have faith and that any evidential support or even conflict is irrelevant as that is kinda the point of faith. They take a very rational approach to their irrationality.
Then on the other hand are those (the vast majority) who claim to have faith but if questioned at all on this will immediately start talking about evidence. These range from nutjob creationists to the more subtle and complex arguments of those who advocate forms of immaterial evidence as being valid.
The first group are aware of their contradictions and seem quite accepting so I don't think cognitive dissonance is particularly a factor there.
The second group I think can become cognitively dissonant if forced to confront the inadequacy of the evidence they are advocating or (worse) the superior evidential basis of conclusions that contradict their own.
This reminds me of our current What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You? thread. Would you agree that the first group does not employ critical thinking as much due to their choice regarding faith over evidence?
Straggler writes:
Simply stating one has faith whilst trenchantly advocating that the evidence supports that faith is where I see the difference.
There are those "rational irrationals" who don't go round expecting anyone else to rationally accept their faith or give it any evidential credence at all. Fine by me. Live and let live. I have no problem with this kind of personal faith at all.
Personally, I think I belong more to the first group. I realize that I have confirmation bias in many aspects of my faith. I realize that I assume that the "invisible Unicorn" must be there as my default position. In short, I question my belief but due to the emotional support that it gives me, I never allow myself to doubt it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 04-27-2010 12:59 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 157 of 227 (722353)
03-20-2014 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Stile
05-06-2010 8:23 AM


Re: Becoming a Theist
Stile writes:
(I just regard "becoming a theist" to be different from acknowledging the existence of some "supernatural realm" that has yet been undetected).
The armchair psychologist in me is curious why you resist becoming a Theist. My current theory is that you cherish the idea of being in charge of your thinking and that any sort of allegiance to belief in a Deity robs you of this freedom. Oh and that you honestly have found no Deity thus far....though I wonder if you have a confirmation bias in regards to evidence over faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 05-06-2010 8:23 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Stile, posted 03-20-2014 3:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 158 of 227 (722355)
03-20-2014 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by New Cat's Eye
04-27-2010 4:44 PM


Blessed will be the honest skeptic
Catholic Scientist writes:
Jesus isn't talking about just seeing with your eyes, he's talking about having concrete evidence. Thomas required evidence to believe and Jesus said the blessed are those who believe without evidence.
Some would challenge that and say that blessed (and sane) are those who won't believe without evidence. I suppose it all depends how seriously we take Jesus--be He actually alive, as I believe...or whether He is simply a character in a story. Even if the latter were true, the character considers faith without evidence to be a blessed trait.
Catholic Scientist writes:
If anything, my faith causes cognitive dissonance.
Which in my opinion is a good thing. An untested faith is not very strong.
I qualified the evidence with "concrete"... which is what Jesus was talking about. Not just hearing about it, but actually seeing and touching it in order to believe it. The person who requires that kind of evidence to believe does not fall into the blessed crowd, according to Jesus.
Although Thomas was most certainly "blessed" after he found his evidence. We can't assume that skeptics and atheists who demand the evidence will be any less blessed were they to die tomorrow having found none. As long as they are honest about their belief that evidence is necessary, I personally believe that they did not live their lives in vain. Perhaps for some of us, evidence is only found after death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-27-2010 4:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2014 3:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 03-22-2014 12:07 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 03-22-2014 1:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 160 of 227 (722365)
03-20-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Stile
03-20-2014 3:08 PM


Re: Becoming a Theist
All Im saying is that you have followed the evidence and found no god. Perhaps I am judging you in that I cant understand why you dont feel as I do. Perhaps you dont understand why I accept feelings over evidence or why I interpret my feelings as evidence.
Other than that, you have to understand that my theories are always tentative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Stile, posted 03-20-2014 3:08 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Stile, posted 03-21-2014 8:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 165 of 227 (722568)
03-22-2014 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Faith
03-22-2014 1:20 PM


Re: The "honest skeptic" gets no praise from me: Scripture says Believe
You too, Phat, probably believe to some extent on the basis of this witness evidence, though you seem to have fallen for the EvC debunkery bit that says witness evidence isn't evidence.
The witness evidence is enough for my beliefs, but when talking with those at EvC who are not believers, I follow their standard for evidence rather than my own. I have not "fallen" for anything...i simply use the standards that they use for the sake of argument.
My belief may be logical or illogical in the final analysis...but for the purposes of discussion I try to agree on some sort of consensus so that we may communicate without arguments.
were my standards for proof used as a basis for the discussion, likely nobody would agree with me.
Standards of proof and evidence require a consensus in order to discuss further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 03-22-2014 1:20 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by JonF, posted 03-24-2014 9:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 200 of 227 (722779)
03-25-2014 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Dogmafood
03-24-2014 9:27 AM


Testing Information and motives of informants
ProtoTypical writes:
Even if we start with the assumption that there is a God and that he created the universe, why do people give more weight to the words of the Bible, something that we know men had a hand in creating, than they do to the physical evidence contained in the universe that he created?
This is a point to be considered. Romans talks of this.
Rom 1:20 writes:
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
What does the evidence show? It shows that we humans are learning a lot more about time and space and heavenly bodies. Critics would disagree that Gods "qualities" are understood a priori from what has been made.
So put that scripture on the back burner for now. Lets look at a doozy from the OT:
Deut 4:15-20 writes:
You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
In context, some say that Deuteronomy was written by Moses, but according to Wiki,
quote:
While traditionally accepted as the genuine words of Moses delivered on the eve of the occupation of Canaan, a broad consensus of modern scholars now see its origins in traditions from Israel (the northern kingdom) brought south to the Kingdom of Judah in the wake of the Assyrian destruction of Samaria (8th century BC) and then adapted to a program of nationalist reform in the time of King Josiah (late 7th century), with the final form of the modern book emerging in the milieu of the return from the Babylonian exile during the late 6th century.
Perhaps it is not so important who wrote it as it is to determine the motive behind the writings as well as the message being told through the writing. Why was it important to not bow down (figuratively or literally) to things---or our interpretation and/or understanding of the significance of things?
Finally, should I give more weight to what I personally observe and test than I do to what a book or another person---through the book---tells me to think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Dogmafood, posted 03-24-2014 9:27 AM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2014 2:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 222 of 227 (723124)
03-26-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Dogmafood
03-26-2014 7:39 PM


Re: Why Not?
ProtoTypical writes:
Can God not be found without the bible?
Even the Bible itself says that He can.(Romans 18) and of course at the time of the Gospels there was no actual Bible...but there was OT Scrolls and writings.
The problem with finding God without the Bible is that God (the one that is found) is but a product of human imagination.
I would argue that if God exists---apart from human legends and imaginings--it would be more likely that He found us long before we found Him.
I know that I personally never found Him from simply reading the Bible. Critics would even question my sanity as to whether or not I met Him.(due to the fact that He found me.) In all honesty, I cant argue the point any further than what we have done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Dogmafood, posted 03-26-2014 7:39 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 3:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 03-27-2014 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 226 by Dogmafood, posted 03-27-2014 10:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024