|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Is there a legitimate argument for design? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yes, I apologize, you were right all along. And now he thinks he's going to string us along to the next step in his little fantasy ... but it doesn't take much intelligence to figure that out too.
The 3 elements of life: Matter, energy and information. And that adds up to spiders According to dadman's own example... books are alive? Maybe just the really thick ones... I don't think I own a 5" thick book. Bet they're good for killing spiders. My dad had an old Webster's Dictionary that was a good 4" thick and printed on "onion paper" (very thin stuff) ... and it had spiders in it. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Been there done that ... had my mom's convertible with the top down and left a party with the seats full plus two sitting on the folded down top (legs down the back seat).
Went over a railroad track on a dirt back road, banked. The car left the ground and I saw knees in the rear view mirror ... everybody landed safely. The next day all four tires were low on air ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
dadman writes: however .. before we can continue ... we need to nail down this truth until all are onboard . . . I plan to leave no one behind Too late. Yeah, nobody's behind him. It's the old creationist-thinks-he's-the-big-answer-due-to-ignorance position that we've seen so many times before. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So a book has matter, energy - potential (at rest), kinetic (if falling) and chemical (burning) - and information; all three elements required for life. Why is it not alive? Is there a fourth element that maybe you forgot to mention? Magic maybe? Again, this is demonstration that his description of "life" is invalid (unless you do consider books to be alive). So it's just non-science non-sense. We've seen a whole thread on the Definition of Life and it didn't include these "elements" ... because they are not terms that differentiate life from non-life:
quote:(note the second wiki link above works, but it takes you to the same place as the first wiki link and should be replaced by Life - Wikipedia) Now I have a simpler definition: life is something that is capable of evolution -- changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities -- and this approach raises interesting questions in defining when life occurs and what we view as life. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Maybe change "breeding" to "reproducing" otherwise it would exclude non-sexual populations. But other than that I think that definition fits rather well. I think breeding still works for asexual organisms.
breeding noun1. the producing of offspring. This definition could only apply on a population basis, since a organism could be born sterile and incapable of reproduction, and therefore, as an individual, not part of the breeding or reproducing population but still be considered alive. Or of a non-reproductive age (too young, too old).
Do you consider viruses to be alive? I do, I believe they are the remnants of life in the RNA world, and thus represent a primitive form of life, where prokaryotes are more derived life, and eukaryotes are even more derived. They are the stepping stone between replicating molecules and cellular life. Edited by RAZD, : fixed first quoteby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
yes
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
ah yes the old omnipresent amorphous amorous amoeba ...
NoNukes writes: Which one is the offspring? The one on the left? In my experience, the one's on the right are always a little off. hint: offspring are generically generally genetically different from their geriatric parents ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi again Ed67
... as you are new here, some posting tips: type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy and you can type [qs=RAZD]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
RAZD writes: quotes are easy or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote: also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window. For other formatting tips see Posting TipsFor a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 Sorry, I assumed the argument for the specified, precision code that is found in the DNA/RNA of even the simplest forms of life was already covered. Presentation of a concept is not covering an argument
Sorry, I assumed the argument for the specified, precision code that is found in the DNA/RNA of even the simplest forms of life was already covered. You need to look at the conditions that lead to the formation of life and at the simplest form/s of self-replication first, not at the end product of 3.5 billion years of evolution.
Message 125: Yes, there is a legitimate argument for design. You may want to read Is ID properly pursued?. One can argue that there is a legitimate argument for the earth being the center of the universe ... having an argument doesn't mean it is valid or based on evidence, as it could be based on ignorance or misunderstanding.
Message 125: I think the only argument ID needs (though the concept has many) is in the digital code built into the DNA/RNA. First you need to review the way the universe is primed for the development of life: see Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I) Then you need to review the many chemical paths to self-replication: see Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II) for some examples.
Message 125: The existence of this code is the downfall of abiogenesis, in my opinion. Unfortunately, for you, opinion has not be observed to alter reality in any significant way. But just to clarify things, do you then believe that this intelligence has not done anything since forming the first cell of life? And that all life since has proceeded according to the process of evolution:
We do know that the earth did not possess cellular life forms 4.5 billion years ago, when it first formed, and we do know that cellular life existed 3.5 billion years ago, when the oldest fossil bearing rocks have been discovered, with evidence of fully formed cellular life (cyanobacteria). Therefore we know that at some point in between these times life began. Or do you then believe that, because you can't believe life could form spontaneously, that there has been all kinds of supernatural interferences, down to and including a world wide flood? Just curious. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
... the SPECIFIC ARRANGEMENT of bases ... Is mathematically limited due to only having four bases -- there are only so many combinations of molecules sitting next to each other in the structure. Their "specific arrangement" can easily be the result of random variations and selection of structures that lead to increased survival and reproduction. What we see today is the product of over 3 billion years of evolution. You are aware of what the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy is, yes?
The 'code' is ... A perception rather than a fact. DNA operates more as a recipe than as a code, a recipe that says "take a pinch of this" and add it to "a smidgen of that" ... leaving lots of room for further variations and modifications during the development of an individual organism. Again I refer you to Is ID properly pursued?. When you only see what you want to see you can mistake naturally derived artifact for artificial construct. The pattern observed in a kaleidoscope isn't real but an artifact of the means of observation.
The Which we can observe is similar to other organisms in different degrees, and which we can observe changing and evolving. In which we can observe markers in non-coding sections from viral inserts that demonstrate relatedness between species from common ancestors. The viral inserts we share with Chimpanzees of the same formations and in the same locations show they were inherited from a common ancestor. Similar inserts shared between Humans, Chimps and Gorillas of the same formations and in the same locations show they were inherited from a common ancestor. And so it goes. Edited by RAZD, : linkby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
At best it would be an a punch-card-automaton, that produces proteins. Sometimes with hanging chads that change the protein being made. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I just choose not to respond to silly assertions and baseless arguments. I hope you are not offended, but I'm waiting for anyone here to say anything INTELLEGENT about the origin of the blueprints found in the DNA molecule. Well that is one way to deal with reality, one way to maintain your ignorance and dependency on misleading information. Curiously I see you've changed from "code" to "blueprint" ... it can't be both you know, so at some level you must realize that neither is really an accurate description. CB180: DNA as language
quote: So recipe is a better analogy than code or blueprint. And the replication process is subject to errors, All you have presented are assertions and innuendo, bolstered by logical fallacies and confirmation bias, not by any real evidence. We observe DNA evolving. We observe markers of past moments in the evolving DNA that tie species together in nested hierarchies. Blueprints and codes do not create nested hierarchies. Therefore blueprints and codes are not a valid description of the process of life, they are either the wrong explanation or an incomplete explanation. The argument that you can't imagine how DNA could have evolved is (a) the argument from incredulity logical fallacy, (b) a lack of imagination, and (c) thinking based on ignorance\undereducation on how DNA operates in the real world and how evolution works in the real world. So have another chuckle: what you are laughing at is yourself. Amusing. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yea the answer to how life arose requires a definition of what life is. To me it has to furfill one property self replication with modification. Im one of those that categorises viruses as alive even though its only a strand of RNA I agree, to me the essential aspect of life is that it can evolve, ergo life can be defined as something that can undergo the process of biological evolution:
The process of (biological) evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities. And yes, this would include viruses. Given the "RNA World" hypothesis it can also be (and is) argued that viruses are the left over bits from that time. The amount of viruses in the world is unknown: recently a biologist took a sailboat cruise across the Atlantic and sampled the water, every day he cataloged new viruses. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Ok, this is your own word so all your gang can agree with it lol. So, do recipes include cooking instructions? For the chemist the process would be: Take Sodium and Chlorine and dissolve in water, apply heat until the water evaporates. Now there may be an excess of either (or both) left over, but most will combine by chemical reactions to form salt crystals. If there are other elements mixed in you can get some "impurities" (mistakes?) in the salt matrix, some fitting in and perhaps changing the color of the chrystal, others interfering with the pattern so that it isn't as regular as pure NaCl salt. Curiously, these conditions are known to occur naturally all over the world ... Salt (chemistry) - Wikipedia
quote: Pretty isn't it? I wonder who designed the color ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
and he behaves increasingly like a troll in passing out insults and not answering questions ...
Personally I don't think he can answer the questions ... so he tries to pretend (to himself) that he does with replies he must think are quite witty, but which actually are relatively obviously simply failure to reply honestly. He's in an axe fight ... with an axe to grind ... that is so dull that it can't cut the mustard ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
No. He's a troll. EvC is about the easiest troll target I could imagine, ... Actually I think it is part of the natural evolution of creationists\IDologists on this forum, when the run out of the regurgitated pap they think is ammunition, there is nothing left so all they have to fall back on is nonsensical ramblings and insults.
... and Ed67 is simply taking advantage of our desire for new creationist/ID meat to chew on. And all the meat has been chewed off long ago, leaving only gristle, the intractable belief in spite of evidence to the contrary.
And every message including yours and the one I am writing now simply feed the troll. Even AZPaul3's was an acknowledgement of irritation. But so entertaining to watch the monkey dance .... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024