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Author | Topic: Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm wondering because
1) it's just so weird, that letter he supposedly wrote to Buckingham, first invoking God and calling him wife, it's just too too weird. 2) Besides why on earth would he leave such evidence around for his enemies to find? 3) It contradicts too much else that is known about him. He had a reputation as a true Christian. Kings generally don't mind being all kinds of sinners if they really are, but he seemed to be a genuine believer. And enemies love to smear such people. 4) The whole idea was concocted after his death and most of it in our time. Nobody ever accused him of homosexuality in his own time which they certainly would have in that age. Yet again, I can't disprove the claims, they just don't convince me.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's another big fat lie. James asserted the divine right of kings as antidote to the Pope's claim to be boss over kings as well as everybody else. And he was hardly the great tyrant you make him out to be. abe: He even advised the people against doing any kind of violence against the Catholics who had tried to kill him. /abe
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
deleted original post. I thought it was a positive contribution to the discussion but apparently it wasn't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Did you not read the article on Buckingham that you cited ?
Contemporaneous evidence suggests that Villiers was James' lover. In 1617, John Oglander wrote that he never yet saw any fond husband make so much or so great dalliance over his beautiful spouse as I have seen King James over his favourites, especially the Duke of Buckingham."[9] Edward Peyton wrote, the king sold his affections to Sir George Villiers, whom he would tumble and kiss as a mistress."[10] [9] refers to: Bergeron, David M. (2002). "Writing King James's Sexuality". In Fischlin, Fortier. Royal Subjects: Essays on the Writings of James VI and I. Detroit: Wayne State University Press. p348 [10] refers to: Ruigh, Robert E. (1971). The Parliament of 1624: Politics and Foreign Policy. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.p77
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I read it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Then why did you claim that there were no contemporary allegations of a homosexual relationship, when the article says otherwise ?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
1) it's just so weird, that letter he supposedly wrote to Buckingham, first invoking God and calling him wife, it's just too too weird.
Because you find it weird it cannot be? Seems quite rational for him to talk to the person he loves this way.
2) Besides why on earth would he leave such evidence around for his enemies to find?
Views of same sex relationships were different back then. This was before victorian prudishness. Also, he was an authoritarian despot. He didn't care what people thought.
3) It contradicts too much else that is known about him. He had a reputation as a true Christian. Kings generally don't mind being all kinds of sinners if they really are, but he seemed to be a genuine believer. And enemies love to smear such people.
He had a reputation as an amoral despot.
) The whole idea was concocted after his death and most of it in our time. Nobody ever accused him of homosexuality in his own time which they certainly would have in that age.
No. You just want this to be. He was a known homosexual in his time. In 1623 Thophile de Viau (1590- 1626) wrote obscene poem "Au marquis du Boukinquan,". Apollo with his songsDebauched young Hyacinthus Just as Corydon fucked Amyntas, So Caesar did not spurn boys. One man fucks Monsieur le Grand de Bellegarde [a friend of Viau],Another fucks the Comte de Tonnerre. And it is well known that the King of England Fucks the Duke of Buckingham. Gaudiani, Claire Lynn (1981). The Cabaret poetry of Thophile de Viau: Texts and Traditions page 104
Source Any more evidence you want to ignore?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
it's just so weird, that letter he supposedly wrote to Buckingham, first invoking God and calling him wife, it's just too too weird. That's 17th Century oppressive dictators for you, they sound weird.
Besides why on earth would he leave such evidence around for his enemies to find? It wouldn't be the first time a powerful person has communicated in secret in such a way his enemies can exploit that leaves evidence, especially when the only way he could communicate with a person he said he loved, was through letters. Maybe he thought he was powerful enough that he could ignore or kill any enemies that tried to make a deal out of it.
It contradicts too much else that is known about him. He had a reputation as a true Christian. People with such reputations can and do get involved in scandals, sometimes involving sex.
Kings generally don't mind being all kinds of sinners if they really are, but he seemed to be a genuine believer. Believers can still sin and can do so while thinking they are in God's graces.
The whole idea was concocted after his death and most of it in our time. Nobody ever accused him of homosexuality in his own time which they certainly would have in that age. There are a number of reports that comment on the scandalous or inappropriate nature of the relationship.
Yet again, I can't disprove the claims, they just don't convince me. But if such letters were written by Obama I'm sure you'd find them very persuasive, right?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't believe Bergeron, he's a little too eager to celebrate "homoerotic desire" and anybody who "creatively" reinterprets a historical figure is suspect to me, as said in this article on Bergeron
But the article goes on to comment that James' letters had been previously read as homoerotic but not with such approval:
King James and Letters of Homoerotic Desire presents a modern-spelling edition of seventy-five letters exchanged between Buckingham and James. Across the centuries, commentators have condemned the letters as indecent or repulsive... However, homoerotic is one thing, actual homosexual activity is another.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: I've occasionally doubted whether Phat was a Christian, mostly due to his seeming to accept some of the outrageous antichristian stuff jar says, but he's been coming across for some time now as a genuine believer and I give him a great deal of credit for being willing to admit he is attracted to the same sex. That takes guts. The Church is full of every kind of repentant sinner, but the key is "repentant" and Phat says he is and I believe him. You really are 'full of yourself' as my grandma used to say.. But I'm sure Phat will be releaved. Or not.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Because it was said somewhere. And I've come to distrust everything written about the man that accuses him of homosexuality. But the contemporary claim didn't quite accuse him of homosexuality anyway, just of unseemly behavior..
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I have NO clue how anything I said shows me to be "full of myself" but if that's how you read that post I decided to delete it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Since he's only cited as a secondary source for a contemporary letter, I think you can trust him on that.
quote: But the letters are evidence of a homosexual relationship. But this is really besides the point. Why say that there were no contemporary conclusions so soon after seeing evidence to the contrary ? You don't have to answer directly, but you really ought to think about it and try to do better.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Again; how is saying "You can buy anything but a wedding cake" different than saying "You can buy anything in the store except at the white counter" or "You can ride anywhere on the bus as long as you don't sit in the front with the white folk"?
How does a cake validate a marriage? Any answers Faith? Edited by jar, : appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Where's the "evidence of homosexual relationship" in those letters?
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