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Author Topic:   Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 766 of 779 (801888)
03-10-2017 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by Rrhain
03-10-2017 6:25 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
Technically true, but misleading. The Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed in 1943 and the Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1965 did away with national origin quotas.

Not misleading at all. There is clearly an enabling statute that gives the president the power to do ban anyone from any country from entering the US. The question is whether the Trump's EO is a constitutional application of that statute. The reasons for not allowing Chinese folks to enter were about as odious as they come, which supports the conclusion that given an enabling statute, there is no Constitutional issue.

The Executive does not have the authority to override the Legislature.

I have no idea what legislative act you think is in the way. I'm certainly not talking about the Chinese Exclusion Act.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Rrhain, posted 03-10-2017 6:25 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 773 by Rrhain, posted 03-10-2017 2:31 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 767 of 779 (801890)
03-10-2017 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 763 by Faith
03-10-2017 6:23 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
I hope our new AG is enough up on Constitutional law to know where it was affirmed that even a religion has no rights if it advocates overthrowing the government.

I suspect his grasp of the law exceeds yours by quite a bit.

For example, I am sure that the AG understands that it is people who have rights and not their religion, although it might be a good idea to give him a reminder that "people" includes folks of color.

Here is a Justice Scalia quote for you with emphasis added by me:

quote:
The three most popular religions in the United States, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam—which combined account for 97.7% of all believers—are monotheistic. All of them, moreover (Islam included), believe that the Ten Commandments were given by God to Moses, and are divine prescriptions for a virtuous life. Publicly honoring the Ten Commandments is thus indistinguishable…from publicly honoring God. Both practices are recognized across such a broad and diverse range of the population—from Christians to Muslims—that they cannot be reasonably understood as a government endorsement of a particular religious viewpoint.

I suppose Justice Scalia was just mouthing words from his globalist overseers. AmIrite? The question of whether the constitution covers Islam as a religious belief is not one to be taken seriously.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 6:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24006
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 768 of 779 (801891)
03-10-2017 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 765 by Rrhain
03-10-2017 6:28 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
So give them due process,k what does that have to do with the right to discriminate against them? Duh. But as I understand it from previous discussions of this point, that promise of due process is only for those already in the country.* We don't owe outside foreigners anything except of course bgasic human rights.

abe: * Already in the country, that is, "By favor" in Madison's words, meaning not illegally.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by Rrhain, posted 03-10-2017 6:28 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 7:00 AM Faith has responded
 Message 774 by Rrhain, posted 03-10-2017 2:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 769 of 779 (801892)
03-10-2017 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 768 by Faith
03-10-2017 6:52 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
So give them due process,k what does that have to do with the right to discriminate against them?

This question is beyond idiotic.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 6:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 7:01 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24006
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 770 of 779 (801893)
03-10-2017 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 769 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 7:00 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
No, you are just logic-challenged as usual.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 7:00 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 1:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12825
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 771 of 779 (801916)
03-10-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 759 by Faith
03-10-2017 3:55 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
Faith writes:

Yes, because it doesn't matter what "legal" justification anyone can make up for it, such a justification can only be Leftist revisionism....


The Leftist Lock key on your keyboard seems to be stuck. Is it possible for you to write a post without some inane reference to "leftists"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 759 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 3:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 772 of 779 (801933)
03-10-2017 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 770 by Faith
03-10-2017 7:01 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
No, you are just logic-challenged as usual.

Do you know what Due Process means?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 7:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6089
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 773 of 779 (801936)
03-10-2017 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 6:46 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
NoNukes responds to me:

quote:
Not misleading at all. There is clearly an enabling statute that gives the president the power to do ban anyone from any country from entering the US. The question is whether the Trump's EO is a constitutional application of that statute.

I don't deny that. But that isn't what we were talking about. It was specifically this statement:

the Supreme Court precedent is that laws such as the Chinese Exclusion Act are constitutional.

That is true, but misleading because that Act no longer exists. The law you're talking about is something completely different. This is part of the problem with Trump's original EO: It seemed to think that the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 hadn't been altered by the Act of 1965.

And it's precisely the same fight then in 1952 that we have today. Truman vetoed the Act, saying:

Today, we are "protecting" ourselves as we were in 1924, against being flooded by immigrants from Eastern Europe. This is fantastic. ... We do not need to be protected against immigrants from these countries–on the contrary we want to stretch out a helping hand, to save those who have managed to flee into Western Europe, to succor those who are brave enough to escape from barbarism, to welcome and restore them against the day when their countries will, as we hope, be free again....These are only a few examples of the absurdity, the cruelty of carrying over into this year of 1952 the isolationist limitations of our 1924 law.

In no other realm of our national life are we so hampered and stultified by the dead hand of the past, as we are in this field of immigration.

And remember, this was right after WWII and the Holocaust. We still couldn't understand the unmitigated evil of denying people freedom simply because we were scared.

But, Congress overrode the veto.

So, back to my point: It may be that the current Supreme Court, should it be presented with something like a "Muslim Exclusion Act" would fall back on precedent set by the Chae Chan Ping v. United States (1889) case where they said:

the power of exclusion of foreigners [is] an incident of sovereignty belonging to the government of the United States as a part of those sovereign powers delegated by the constitution.

I personally think the religious aspects of this particular scenario would give them pause but in the end, that is irrelevant.

The law as it currently stands states that:

No person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of nationality.

So even if it is constitutional to ban Muslims, the Executive doesn't have the power to do so because the law prohibits him from doing so. In order to do that, the Immigration and Nationality Act would need to be amended.

As I said: The Executive does not have the power to override the Legislature. That's precisely the same problem we had with Iran/Contra: The President did something that the law expressly forbade him doing.

quote:
The reasons for not allowing Chinese folks to enter were about as odious as they come, which supports the conclusion that given an enabling statute, there is no Constitutional issue.

Again, irrelevant.

“No person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of nationality.”

That's what the law is.

And despite what Nixon said, if the President does it, it's still illegal.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 6:46 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 776 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 11:02 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6089
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 774 of 779 (801938)
03-10-2017 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 768 by Faith
03-10-2017 6:52 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
Faith writes:

quote:
But as I understand it from previous discussions of this point, that promise of due process is only for those already in the country.

Nope.

Now, I had already asked you nicely to please not play dumb and pretend that the due process protections of the US Constitution apply to people outside the US dealing with non-US governments.

And yet, here you are doing precisely that.

The promise of due process (mentioned in Amendments 5 and 14) is a right for all "persons." You will note that it does not restrict it to mere "citizens."

What this means is that any person that has any dealing such that they are subject to US jurisdiction...like...oh...I don't know...immigration...then they are entitled to due process.

We have a process for immigration. That process, then, requires the application of due process to those seeking to immigrate. And, of course, those seeking to immigrate would necessarily be non-citizens (since citizens don't "immigrate" to their own country).

The law as it is right now states:

No person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of nationality.

Thus, if you are immigrating to the US and find that you are being discriminated against due to your nationality, you have a claim regarding due process.

It's like you don't understand what "due process" means.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 6:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5508
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 775 of 779 (801971)
03-10-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 763 by Faith
03-10-2017 6:23 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
I hope our new AG is enough up on Constitutional law to know where it was affirmed that even a religion has no rights if it advocates overthrowing the government.

I sure hope the AG makes that argument. Because it is so utterly absurd, that it would undermine any actual argument that he might have.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 6:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 776 of 779 (801994)
03-10-2017 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by Rrhain
03-10-2017 2:31 PM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
Rrhain writes:

The law as it currently stands states that:

No person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of nationality

What you have quoted is not the entirety of the law. You do not mention the much-discussed 8 U.S. Code § 1182(f) which allows the president to determine that certain classes of aliens may be denied entry based on the president's own findings.

quote:
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Rrhain, posted 03-10-2017 2:31 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by Modulous, posted 03-11-2017 11:01 AM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28460
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 777 of 779 (802017)
03-11-2017 10:04 AM


Looks like TSA is now checking travel within the US.
An article in yesterdays USA Today says that Muhammad Ali Jr was again stopped and questioned by TSA before being allowed to board a plane from DC back to FT Lauderdale after testifying before Congress where he said on Thursday that the government needs to help end racial and religious profiling.
source

When you add that behavior to the purge of all attorneys appointed under the Obama Administration a frightening reminder of the Saturday Night Massacre designed to eliminate any possible opposition as well as again pointing out how petty, childish and immature Trump and all of his sycophants and fellow travelers are.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin appoint --> appointed


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7401
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 778 of 779 (802029)
03-11-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 776 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 11:02 PM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
You do not mention the much-discussed 8 U.S. Code § 1182(f)

Rrhain did, in fairness say:

quote:
It seemed to think that the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 hadn't been altered by the Act of 1965.

1182(f) was enacted as part of the 1952 act.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 11:02 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by NoNukes, posted 03-11-2017 11:23 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 779 of 779 (802037)
03-11-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by Modulous
03-11-2017 11:01 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue

1182(f) was enacted as part of the 1952 act.

Thanks. Well noted.

In any event, this provision has been used by presidents since 1965, including a usage by Jimmy Carter to revoke all Iranian visas back in 1980. Apparently, the 1965 act did not remove this particular presidential power.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Modulous, posted 03-11-2017 11:01 AM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
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