Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8734 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-29-2017 5:02 PM
424 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: timtak
Post Volume:
Total: 802,206 Year: 6,812/21,208 Month: 2,573/2,634 Week: 236/525 Day: 69/82 Hour: 0/18


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
47484950
51
52Next
Author Topic:   Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response
jar
Member
Posts: 28458
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 751 of 779 (801525)
03-07-2017 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Pressie
03-07-2017 8:18 AM


Re: And now it looks like travel bans extend to US Citizens.
Pressie writes:

Nope. It's the right of US citizens to leave and re-enter the US. That's not a privilege. It's a right.

That is what will be tested. Remember that right now the US has a neutral Supreme Court but it will be the Republicans that will determine the makeup in the near future.

It is that court that will decide what is a right and what is a privilege and the decision may not be based on morality or reason or logic but rather what is the then current US Federal law.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Pressie, posted 03-07-2017 8:18 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 752 of 779 (801530)
03-07-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Pressie
03-07-2017 8:18 AM


Re: And now it looks like travel bans extend to US Citizens.
It's the right of US citizens to leave and re-enter the US. That's not a privilege. It's a right.

Is it? Where is that established? Why do I have to get a passport? I honestly don't know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Pressie, posted 03-07-2017 8:18 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2017 10:32 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5705
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 753 of 779 (801533)
03-07-2017 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 752 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2017 10:21 AM


Re: And now it looks like travel bans extend to US Citizens.
Quick overview. Basically, interpretations of the Constitution by the courts.
Let me know if you have any questions or feel the need for something more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/..._States_law#International_travel


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2017 10:21 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5705
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 754 of 779 (801535)
03-07-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by jar
03-06-2017 8:31 PM


Re: And now it looks like travel bans extend to US Citizens.
I think we should wait for more to come out on this before we jump all over it.

Mr. Khan is not commenting. I fear this all may not resolve in a favorable way for Mr. Kahn. But lets see. This may be all that is claimed but until we know more judgement, should be reserved. None of the major news sources are touching this. Until we know how Mr. Khan was informed of the travel review and what it entails there is no way to verify the allegations.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by jar, posted 03-06-2017 8:31 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28458
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 755 of 779 (801801)
03-09-2017 5:18 PM


It looks like five States will now sue
So far it appears that Hawaii and Washington as well as New York, Massachusetts and Oregon will be suing to have the All New and Stupider Trump Travel Ban declared Unconstitutional and the Virginia suit on the subject is still in play but only as it effects Virginia residents.

The problem is that a Religious Test by any other name is STILL Unconstitutional and Trump and his Administration have shown their true colors too many times in too many venues.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 12:22 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 756 of 779 (801846)
03-10-2017 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by jar
03-09-2017 5:18 PM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
The problem is that a Religious Test by any other name is STILL Unconstitutional and Trump and his Administration have shown their true colors too many times in too many venues.

I'm not completely convinced by this argument for a few reasons.

1. Much of the stuff in the order itself that ties the order to a religious test has been removed. I understand that previous rulings used other Trump statements to augment things in the order, but the strength of such arguments is going to diminish over time (or with the issuance of subsequent orders), particularly if it is clear that Trump has made changes to comply with previous rulings.

2. The easy unconstitutionality arguments, namely the application to visa holders and green card holders are no long viable as the order no longer covers those folks. I note that Hawaii makes the argument that the families of citizens are still affected. Clearly, US citizens and visa holders do have constitutional rights, but the Supreme Court has previously made rulings that such rights are not fundamental, and are not sufficient to override a Congressional statute contrary to those rights.

If there is a discriminatory intent, it is clear that Trump is making the attempt to limit the expression of that intent to folks who it is difficult to argue have rights under our constitution. As odious as that might sound, the Supreme Court precedent is that laws such as the Chinese Exclusion Act are constitutional. The Supreme Court also upheld laws that kept folks from India from becoming citizens. These rulings have never been overturned even though the US has in the past issued apologies for its treatment of Chinese.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by jar, posted 03-09-2017 5:18 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 3:00 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 764 by Rrhain, posted 03-10-2017 6:25 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 757 of 779 (801858)
03-10-2017 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 12:22 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
The idea that we can't discriminate against NONCITIZENS OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY on the basis of anything we like, including "religion" is crazeeeeee. And "religion" is a term that Islam doesn't deserve anyway because it's nothing but a totalitarian political ideology that seeks to rule the world whether it has to do it by murdering all dissenters as Mohammed did all the Jews in Medina, or by immigration and growing their population, or whatever tactic comes to hand. After Medina the method of choice was slaughtering its way through most of the world at the time. The Constitution does not support national suicide.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 12:22 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 3:20 AM Faith has responded
 Message 765 by Rrhain, posted 03-10-2017 6:28 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 758 of 779 (801863)
03-10-2017 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Faith
03-10-2017 3:00 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
Do you have anything concrete to add or is "crazeeeee" really your best contribution?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 3:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 3:55 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 759 of 779 (801866)
03-10-2017 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 758 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 3:20 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
Yes, because it doesn't matter what "legal" justification anyone can make up for it, such a justification can only be Leftist revisionism, as so much else in our justice system is these days, possibly following globalist orders to destroy the nation, and "crazeeee" is the only apt response to it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 758 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 3:20 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 4:33 AM Faith has responded
 Message 771 by ringo, posted 03-10-2017 11:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 760 of 779 (801872)
03-10-2017 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 759 by Faith
03-10-2017 3:55 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
The case we are discussing will be decided in a court of law. Neither side is likely to make idiotic arguments that Islam is not a religion, so I guess both sides are engaging in "Leftist revisionism"

Got anything more helpful to add?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 759 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 3:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 761 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 4:52 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 761 of 779 (801873)
03-10-2017 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 760 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 4:33 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
The case we are discussing will be decided in a court of law. Neither side is likely to make idiotic arguments that Islam is not a religion, so I guess both sides are engaging in "Leftist revisionism"

Oh for sure. But it would help if someone argued that the Constitution doesn't protect the "religion" of outsiders if it has violent goals and methods it seeks to use against the nation's people. If that isn't argued either, that's just another expression of Leftist revisionism.

Got anything more helpful to add?

Not really. What I've said ought to be quite helpful if properly appreciated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 760 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 4:33 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 762 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 5:11 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9343
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 762 of 779 (801876)
03-10-2017 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 761 by Faith
03-10-2017 4:52 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
But it would help if someone argued that the Constitution doesn't protect the "religion" of outsiders if it has violent goals and methods it seeks to use against the nation's people. If that isn't argued either, that's just another expression of Leftist revisionism.

Given that Islam is also the religion of a few million insiders, I suspect that making the arguments you recommend would result in the judge considering your representation complete idiots.

And of course, your favored argument won't be presented. I've given some suggestion of what might be tried instead and a prediction that such arguments might be more successful. And all without resulting to ridiculous accusations that folks are "possibly following globalist orders to destroy the nation".

Whether you like it or not, folks on the left love their country too. I served in the United States military as an officer on submarines which I suspect is more than you've ever done for this country.

What I've said ought to be quite helpful if properly appreciated.

Yes. Why don't you pass your suggestions on to the Attorney General so he can get them out to his legal team. That way he can look like a moron in court. I understand that this thread is intended to show the wacko "liberal" response. Perhaps we had best move this thread back onto the topic, because what we seem to be discussing here are wacko, wingnut, responses.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 4:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 6:23 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 763 of 779 (801882)
03-10-2017 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 762 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 5:11 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
I hope our new AG is enough up on Constitutional law to know where it was affirmed that even a religion has no rights if it advocates overthrowing the government.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 5:11 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 767 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 6:51 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 775 by nwr, posted 03-10-2017 4:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6089
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(4)
Message 764 of 779 (801883)
03-10-2017 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by NoNukes
03-10-2017 12:22 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
NoNukes writes:

quote:
the Supreme Court precedent is that laws such as the Chinese Exclusion Act are constitutional.

Technically true, but misleading. The Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed in 1943 and the Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1965 did away with national origin quotas.

The Executive does not have the authority to override the Legislature.

As was pointed out in the Washington case, one does not need to discriminate against everyone in order to be guilty of discrimination. The choice of the specific countries is not connected to the justification given for why they should be restricted. Given that Trump specifically campaigned upon a ban on Muslims and specifically contacted Giuliani on how one could carry out a Muslim ban, given that the Department of Homeland Security report indicates that the countries chosen have no connection to terrorism and that such a ban on those countries would be counterproductive, given Trump's financial interests in neighboring countries that are not on the list, given that Iraq was taken off the list because it threatened to retaliate in kind and thus impact the financial interests of American contractors, the spirit and effect of the order cannot be overlooked.

It's a Muslim ban.

It's very much like the Dover claim: The creationists insisted that because they did not use the word "creationism," that somehow means that "intelligent design" isn't creationism. Because they never identify the "intelligent designer" as "god," that means it isn't religion. And yet, we all know it is. And it's still unconstitutional.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 756 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 12:22 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by NoNukes, posted 03-10-2017 6:46 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6089
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 765 of 779 (801884)
03-10-2017 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Faith
03-10-2017 3:00 AM


Re: It looks like five States will now sue
Faith writes:

quote:
The idea that we can't discriminate against NONCITIZENS OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY on the basis of anything we like, including "religion" is crazeeeeee.

Someone hasn't read the Constitution, apparently.

Your right to "due process" is guaranteed by the Constitution. Now, let's not play dumb and pretend that means that an Italian can refer to the US Constitution when filing a claim against the Italian government. No, it means that when dealing with the US government, they are entitled to due process.

And that is precisely what the Muslim ban denies.

Your libel against Islam is noted, by the way.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 3:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by Faith, posted 03-10-2017 6:52 AM Rrhain has responded

    
RewPrev1
...
47484950
51
52Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017