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Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 381 (813134)
06-23-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
06-23-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Marx and Satan
Who said we're "supposed" to be discussing anything in particular? I said in the OP that Marxism is so odious to me I really can't read the official documents (beyond what I managed years ago), but I invited others to describe it so that I might get the gist of it. Caffeine obliged with a summary, and I followed his link to the reading of The Communist Manifesto at You Tube which I found just as odious as I've always found Marxism. Nothing I can do about that. You're all still welcome to present Marxist ideas in your own words and try to defend them. That doesn't seem to be what anyone wants to do, though, you'd all rather throw accusations at me instead, or set traps to catch me in something politically incorrect enough to justify some real Leftist hate-slinging. Except caffeine, and I do appreciate his effort to give a summary of the CM. Since he did make the effort maybe I should go back and try to do more justice to it. But just those few minutes of the CM at You Tube was nauseating to me.
As for the book Marx and Satan, it's far more accessible and easy to read and it's certainly not off topic.
Instead of your usual one-liner put-downs do you think you could manage to give your view of Marxism instead?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 113 of 381 (813140)
06-23-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
06-23-2017 12:53 PM


Re: Marx and Satan
Not being able to get through the official documents certainly doesn't mean I don't know the basics of Marxism. What kind of silliness is that? I was up to my ears in Marxist politics during the sixties, read all kinds of Marxist screeds and Cultural Marxism, Marxist feminism, went to Marxism -based lectures, and have followed a lot of the ex-Marxists too. I haven't said anything false about it either. So you really have no cause for making such an issue of this. I certainly wouldn't try to critique Critical Theory because it's another Marxist body of thought I can't stand to read and I gather at least Genomicus has studied it. However, it's sometimes equated with Postmodernism and I have certainly read a lot of discussion about all of that over the years.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 117 of 381 (813144)
06-23-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by caffeine
06-23-2017 1:05 PM


Re: Chapter One: Communist Manifesto
Thanks for your post. At the moment I just want to respond to this:
It strikes me that much of your criticism here is not really aimed at Marxism, since it applies much more widely. You could say the same about any ideology - you gave the example of Islam; but remember that one Solzhenitsyn's own examples was Christianity.
Of course, you will tell us that 'Christians' who justify inhumanity with Christianity are not True Christians. But, as you yourself just pointed out, anti-Stalin Marxists will tell us that Stalin and his ilk were not True Marxists. I'm not seeing a difference.
I posted Solzhenitsyn's quote because I keep saying the problem with Islam is the ideology, not the people: it's the ideology that tells them to kill infidels, they aren't any more naturally murderous as people than anybody else, but Islam certainly is murderous.
Solzhenitsyn generalized the concept of ideology and I'm not sure I agree with all of what he said but it's interesting as a general framework for discussion.
Yes I'm going to object to the point about Christianity because the Inquisition was Roman Catholic and it persecuted tens of millions of proto0-Protestant Christians. The Protestant Reformation was first of all the recovery of the Bible, which the RCC had abandoned and even forbade, which is how they were free to pursue such a murderous course. Eventually the Reformers came to repudiate Roman Catholicism altogether as not Christian but based on pagan superstition (although of course there are individuals who are Christians within the RCC) and identified the papacy particularly as the Antichrist. So there's no way I'm going to consider it Christian, although Solzhenitsyn is right that THEY justified it as Christian.
There is nothing about Bible-based Christian ideology that justifies killing heretics; as an ideology it should be a solid recipe for basic love of neighbor whoever the neighbor is, and in fact its track record is definitely in the direction of humanitarian mercies and tolerance and liberality to all, and that does include the period under Romanism thanks to the genuine Christians within it. (Yes I know the objections, exceptions and side trips, but please let's not get into all that here. I think Christianity is the main reason for the success of Western Civilization because of its basic love of humanity, is it possible to leave it there?)
Solzhenitsyn seems to have had in mind a self-centered self-justifying ideology which may of course impose a narrow rule on others, but I think I might want to restrict the concept to the kind of ideology that has a strong us-versus-them mentality in which the "them" are regarded as deserving of mistreatment, persecution and death. That describes the RCC's nonbiblical traditions and it describes the jihadi part of Islam. I thinki the dichotomy of oppressor-versus-oppressed which is at the heart of Marxism, and elaborated in so many ways in less orthodox versions of Marxism, has that same tendency and is the reason Communist regimes always murder their dissidents and why American politics today is so extremely polarized.
But I note your discussion of that dichotomy and hope to get back to it later. Yes, I think I will want to see Chapter Two because of what you say about it, but not yet.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 381 (813205)
06-24-2017 10:19 AM


Reading Marx and Satan
When I read this book years ago I must have been a new enough Christian not to fully appreciate what I was reading. Now I'm chilled by Marx's overt embrace of Satanism. I would never have thought that even the most evil consequences of a human political philosophy had to be inspired by Satan himself, but perhaps I should start considering it. Wurmbrand points out in passing that Hitler was also a follower of the powers of darkness, which is better known in his case.
Marx openly says he wants to destroy everything good, well, everything in existence for that matter. Since it seems to me that's the actual result of his theories I have to consider that direct involvement by the Prince of Darkness himself is a real possibility, and that Marx did consciously intend the evil results.
I want to post some quotations from the book but I'll have to collect them first.
ABE: On the other hand maybe I can start quoting from where I am: His official biographer confirms that he told a story to his children about selling one's soul to the Devil. It's also interesting that at first he was anti-Communist.
{p.14} Marx was an avowed enemy of all gods, a man who had bought his sword from the prince of darkness at the price of his soul. He had declared it his aim to draw all mankind into the abyss and to follow them laughing.
Could Marx really have bought his sword from Satan?
His daughter Eleanor says that Marx told her and her sisters many stories when they were children. The one she liked most was about a certain Hans Rckle.
The telling of the story lasted months and months, because it was a long, long story and never finished. Hans Rckle was a witch ... who had a shop with toys and many debts.... Though he was a witch, he was always in financial need. Therefore he had to sell against his will all his beautiful things, piece after piece, to the Devil.... Some of these adventures were horrifying and made your hair stand on end...
Is it normal for a father to tell his little children horrifying stories about selling one's dearest treasures to the Devil? Robert Payne in his book Marx also recounts this incident in great detail, as told by Eleanor - how unhappy Rckle, the magician, sold the toys with reluctance, holding on to them until the last moment. But since he had made a pact with the Devil, there was no escaping it. Marx's biographer continues,
There can be very little doubt that those interminable stories were autobiographical. He had the Devil's view of the world, and the Devil's malignity. Sometimes he seemed to know that he was accomplishing works of evil
When Marx had finished Oulanem and other early poems in which he wrote about having a pact with the Devil, he had no thought of socialism. He even fought against it. He was editor of a German magazine, the Rheinische Zeitung, which "does not concede even theoretical validity to Communist ideas in their present form, let alone desire their practical realization, which it anyway finds impossible.... Attempts by masses to carry out Communist ideas can be answered by a cannon as soon as they have become dangerous...."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 381 (813208)
06-24-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
06-24-2017 10:43 AM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Or yours are.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 381 (813216)
06-24-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by JonF
06-24-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Reading Marx and Satan
Amazing how I get blamed for stuff I never said because people can't read. I did not say Wurmbrand is Marx's official biographer. He quoted his official biographer in the passage I posted.
So Wurmbrand objects to telling your children stories about selling your soul to the devil. He'd probably also object to the Grimm stories. So what.
You certainly are adept at denying anything anyone says you don't want to believe, by invoking an impossible standard of evidence against it. You must live in a world where nobody is to be trusted except those who believe what you believe. That seems to be your entire modus operandi. So don't believe it, you'll be the loser. You must end up lost in quite a welter of lies that way but it's your choice.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 381 (813217)
06-24-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
06-24-2017 10:43 AM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Wurmbrand gives the following description of Satanic rites, which doesn't suggest much along the lines your Satanist source lists. This description is very similar however to what I heard described years ago by someone I knew who with her husband joined a Satanist church. She herself was the altar on at least one occasion:
(p. 8) One of the rituals of the Satanist church is the b[l]ack mass, which Satanist priests recite at midnight. Black candles are put in the candlesticks upside down. The priest is dressed in his ornate robes, but with the lining outside. He says all things prescribed in the prayer book, but reads from the end toward the beginning. The holy names of God, Jesus, and Mary are read inversely. A crucifix is fastened upside down or trampled upon. The body of a naked woman serves as an altar. A consecrated wafer stolen from a church is inscribed with the name Satan and is used for a mock communion. During the black mass a Bible is burned. All those present promise to commit the seven deadly sins, as enumerated in Catholic catechisms, and never to do any good. An orgy follows.
So they vow to lie and steal and commit murder and adultery etc.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 381 (813232)
06-24-2017 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by caffeine
06-24-2017 4:54 PM


IRe: the Tenets of Satanism
The description of Satanic rites was given in answer to jar's ridiculous list of supposed satanic principles, not as evidence of anything to do with Marx. Why is it that nobody ever reads in context here?
I've hardly begun to present the evidence, funny how everyone is going on as if I had.
The evidence is in his early writings mostly, poetry and a drama he wrote in particular which use satanic imagery. The book is online you can check it out for yourself. Starts around page 7.
ABE: I think it helps to recognize that this book is the product of Wurmbrand's interest in understanding the roots of the Communism that had persecuted him for so long. In reading up on Marx he discovered the satanic themes, the radical switch from an early Christian identity to a powerfully anti-God position, apparently the result of some kind of intense disappointment, which he says is never explained. Some of Marx's writing reflects the portrait of Satan in the Bible, but otherwise Wurmbrand had to read up on satanic practices to recognize the themes in his writing. Reading the book in terms of his gradual discoveries I think puts it into perspective.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 381 (813233)
06-24-2017 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by caffeine
06-24-2017 4:54 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Oh, and I didn't intend this book to become central to the discussion about today's Marxism, more of a side trip that interests me separately, though with implications to think about. But Marxism as I encounter it is still the main theme of the thread to my mind and Marx's Satanism more or less irrelevant to that. Since nothing I say on either theme would make a dent in anyone's views I consider it at least an interesting excursion for my own purposes. Yes I think it may explain a lot about Marx's intentions in his political writings, but it isn't necessary for showing their inherent destructiveness. It's an interesting read and some relief from the thread.
ABE:
Wurmbrand deserves better than he's getting here and I've lost interest in giving any further evidence to the abusive mentality that prevails at EvC. If anyone is interested the book is online at the link I've given more than once. I may or may not get back to the other discussions here.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 134 of 381 (813234)
06-24-2017 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
06-24-2017 7:18 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
As I continue reading in the book it seems to me that the satanic themes should be very welcome at EvC, the very sort of ideas often presented here. So there shouldn't be any objection to thinking of Marx as a Satanist in the end, it's all of a piece with today's Leftism.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 381 (813235)
06-24-2017 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
06-24-2017 7:40 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Yes, read page 16. There are many at EvC who should love the thinking of Bakunin and Proudhon who directly praise Satan, in relation to socialism too. The plot thickens. Socialism IS a work of the devil and it makes sense that there are those who embrace both and hate God. (Making distinctions between Socialism, Communism and Marxism isn't justified by the Marxists themselves).

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 381 (813236)
06-24-2017 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
06-24-2017 8:07 PM


Satanism among Marx's friends
Pages 16-18 from Marx and Satan:
Marx did not often speak publicly about metaphysics, but we can gather his views from the men with whom he associated. One of his partners in the First International was Mikhail Bakunin, a Russian anarchist, who wrote:
The Evil One is the satanic revolt against divine authority, revolt in which we see the fecund germ of all human emancipations, the revolution. Socialists recognise each other by the words "In the name of the one to whom a great wrong has been done." Satan [is] the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience; he emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity, in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge.
Bakunin does more than praise Lucifer. He has a concrete program of revolution, but not one that would free the poor from exploitation. He writes:
In this revolution we will have to awaken the Devil in the people, to stir up the basest passions. Our mission is to destroy, not to edify. The passion of destruction is a creative passion.
Marx, along with Bakunin, formed the First International and endorsed this strange program. Marx and Engels said in The Communist Manifesto that the proletarian sees law, morality, and religion as "so many bourgeois prejudices, behind which lurk in ambush just as many bourgeois interests."
Bakunin reveals that Proudhon, another major Socialist thinker and at that time a friend of Karl Marx, also "worshiped Satan." Hess had introduced Marx to Proudhon, who wore the same hair style typical of the nineteenth-century Satanist sect of Joanna Southcott.
Proudhon, in The Philosophy of Misery, declared that God was the prototype for injustice.
We reach knowledge in spite of him, we reach society in spite of him. Every step forward is a victory in which we overcome the Divine.
He exclaims,
Come, Satan, slandered by the small and by kings. God is stupidity and cowardice; God is hypocrisy and falsehood; God is tyranny and poverty; God is evil. Where humanity bows before an altar, humanity, the slave of kings and priests, will be condemned.... I swear, God, with my hand stretched out towards the heavens, that you are nothing more than the executioner of my reason, the sceptre of my conscience.... God is essentially anticivilized, antiliberal, antihuman.
Proudhon declares God to be evil because man, His creation, is evil. Such thoughts are not original; they are the usual content of sermons delivered in Satanist worship.
Marx later quarreled with Proudhon and wrote a book to refute his Philosophy of Misery. But Marx contradicted only minor economic doctrines. He had no objection to Proudhon's demonic anti-God rebellion.
17
Heinrich Heine, the renowned German poet, was a third intimate friend of Marx. He too was a Satan fancier. He wrote:
I called the devil and he came, His face with wonder I must scan; He is not ugly, he is not lame. He is a delightful, charming man.
"Marx was a great admirer of Heinrich Heine... . Their relationship was warm, hearty."
Why did he admire Heine? Perhaps for Satanist thoughts like the following:
I have a desire ... for a few beautiful trees before my door, and if dear God wishes to make me totally happy, he will give me the joy of seeing six or seven of my enemies hanged on these trees. With a compassionate heart I will forgive them after death all the wrong they have done to me during their life. Yes, we must forgive our enemies, but not before they are hanged. I am not revengeful. I would like to love my enemies. But I cannot love them before taking revenge upon them. Only then my heart opens for them. As long as one has not avenged himself, bitterness remains in the heart.
Would any decent man be an intimate friend of one who thinks like this?
But Marx and his entourage thought alike. Lunatcharski, a leading philosopher who was once minister of education of the U.S.S.R., wrote in Socialism aid Religion that Marx set aside all contact with God and instead put Satan in front of marching proletarian columns.
It is essential at this point to state emphatically that Marx and his comrades, while anti-God, were not atheists, as present-day Marxists claim to be. That is, while they openly denounced and reviled God, they hated a God in whom they believed. They challenged not His existence, but His supremacy.
When the revolution broke out in Paris in 1871, the Communard Flourens declared, "Our enemy is God. Hatred of God is the beginning of wisdom."
Marx greatly praised the Communards who openly proclaimed this aim. But what has this to do with a more equitable distribution of goods or with better social institutions? Such are only the outward trappings for concealing the real aim - the total eradication of God and His worship. We saw the evidence of this in such countries as Albania, and today in North Korea, where all churches, mosques, and pagodas have been closed. [My emphasis. Also want to note that Wurmbrand is nave about Islam as well as the RCC]
18
Marx's Devilish Poetry
We see this clearly in Marx's poetry. In "Invocation of One in Despair" and "Human Pride" man's supreme supplication is for his own greatness. If man is doomed to perish through his own greatness, this will be a cosmic catastrophe, but he will die as a godlike being, mourned by demons. Marx's ballad "The Player" records the singer's complaints against a God who neither knows nor respects his art. This emerges from the dark abyss of hell, bedeviling the mind and bewitching the heart, and his dance is the dance of death." The minstrel draws his sword and throws it into the poet's soul.
Art emerging from the dark abyss of hell, bedeviling the mind ... This reminds us of the words of the American revolutionary Jerry Rubin in Do It:
We've combined youth, music, sex, drugs, and rebellion with treason-and that's a combination hard to beat.
In his poem "Human Pride," Marx admits that his aim is not to improve the world or to reform or revolutionize it, but simply to ruin it and to enjoy its being ruined:
With disdain I will throw my gauntlet Full in the face of the world, And see the collapse of this pygmy giant Whose fall will not stifle my ardour. Then will I wander godlike and victorious Through the ruins of the world And, giving my words an active force, I will feel equal to the Creator.
Marx adopted Satanism after intense inner struggle. He ceased writing poems during a period of severe illness, a result of the tempest within his heart. He wrote at that time about his vexation at having to make an idol of a view he detested. He felt sick.
The overriding reason for Marx's conversion to communism appears clearly in a letter of his friend Georg Jung to Ruge: it was not the emancipation of the proletariat, nor even the establishing of a better social order. Jung writes:
If Marx, Bruno Bauer and Feuerbach associate to found a theological-political review, God would do well to surround himself with all his angels and indulge in self-pity, for these three will certainly drive him out of heaven....
Were these poems the only expressly Satanist writings of Karl Marx? We do not know, because the bulk of his works is kept secret by those who guard his manuscripts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 381 (813240)
06-24-2017 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Riggamortis
06-24-2017 9:35 PM


Marx an anti-Semite?? Racist?? Hater??
As I said, I expect a lot of the anti-religion to be popular at EvC. You confirm that. I'm sure there are many here who agree with you. No, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it, I'm just documenting some ideas at this point.
Here's another: I didn't know Marx had written anything anti-Semitic so this came as a surprise:
Though a Jew, he wrote a pernicious anti-Jewish book called The Jewish Question. In 1856, he wrote in The New York Tribune an article entitled "The Russian Loan," in which we read:
We know that behind every tyrant stands a Jew, as a Jesuit stands behind every Pope. As the army of the Jesuits kills every free thought, so the desire of the oppressed would have chances of success, the usefulness of wars incited by capitalists would cease, if it were not for the Jews who steal the treasures of mankind. It is no wonder that 1856 years ago Jesus chased the usurers from the Jerusalem temple. They were like the contemporary usurers who stand behind tyrants and tyrannies. The majority of them are Jewish. The fact that the Jews have become so strong as to endanger the life of the world causes us to disclose their organization, their purpose, that its stench might awaken the workers of the world to fight and eliminate such a canker.
Did Hitler say anything worse than this?
26
(Strangely, Marx also wrote to the contrary, in The Capital, Volume I, under the heading "The Capitalist Character of Manufacture": "In the front of the chosen people it was written that they are the property of Jehovah.")
Many other Jewish Communists imitated Marx in their hatred of Jews. Ruth Fisher, renowned German Jewish Communist leader and a member of Parliament, said: "Squash the Jewish capitalists, hang them from the lamp posts; tread them under your feet." Why just the Jewish capitalists and not the others remains an unanswered question.
Marx hated not only the Jews, but also the Germans: "Beating is the only means of resurrecting the Germans." He spoke about "the stupid German people ... the disgusting national narrowness of the Germans" and said that "Germans, Chinese, and Jews have to be compared with peddlers and small merchants." He called the Russians "cabbage-eaters." The Slavic peoples were "ethnic trash." He expressed his hatred of many nations, but never his love.
Marx wrote in his new year's roundup of 1848 about "the Slavic riffraff," which included Russians, Czechs, and Croats.
These "retrograde" races had nothing left for them by fate except "the immediate task of perishing in the revolutionary world storm." "The coming world war will cause not only reactionary classes and dynasties, but entire reactionary peoples, to disappear from the face of the earth. And that will be progress." "Their very name will vanish."
Neither Marx nor Engels were concerned about the destruction of millions of people. The former wrote,
A silent, unavoidable revolution is taking place in society, a revolution that cares as little about the human lives it destroys as an earthquake cares about the houses it ravages. Classes and races that are too weak to dominate the new conditions of existence will be defeated.
In contrast, Hitler, who desired only the enslavement and not the destruction of these nations, was much more humane than Marx.
Engels wrote in the same vein:
The next world war will make whole reactionary peoples disappear from the face of the earth. This, too, is progress. Obviously this cannot be fulfilled without crushing some delicate national flower. But without violence and without pitilessness nothing can be obtained in history
Marx, the man who posed as a fighter for the proletariat, called this class of people "stupid boys, rogues, asses.
Engels well knew what to expect from them. He wrote, "The democratic, red, yes, even the Communist mob, will never love us."
Marx identified black people with "idiots" and constantly used the offensive term "nigger" in private correspondence.
He called his rival Lassalle "the Jewish nigger" and made it very clear that this was not intended as an epithet of disdain for just one person.
It is now absolutely clear to me that, as both the shape of his head and his hair texture shows, he is descended from the Negroes who joined Moses' flight from Egypt (unless his mother or grandmother on the paternal side hybridized with a nigger).... The pushiness of the fellow is also nigger-like.
Marx even championed slavery in North America. For this, he quarreled with his friend Proudhon, who had advocated the emancipation of slaves in the U.S. Marx wrote in response,
Without slavery, North America, the most progressive of countries, would be transformed into a patriarchal country. Wipe North America from the map of the world and you will have anarchy-the complete decay of modern commerce and civilization. Abolish slavery and you will have wiped America off the map of nations.
Marx also wrote, "The Devil take the British! - In spite of such denunciations, there are plenty of British, as well as American, Marxists.
A page or two before this, Engels is quoted from his earlier life expressing strong Christian doctrine and feeling. It made me cry to think anyone could be that dedicated a Christian and end up so given over to the opposite.
I would think that it should be clear by now that some of the brightest lights in Marxism had no humane intentions whatever. Some of what is said above could have been the main inspiration for Hitler's "final solution" not just against the Jews but the Slavs and in fact the Communists too.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 137 by Riggamortis, posted 06-24-2017 9:35 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 139 of 381 (813241)
06-24-2017 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Riggamortis
06-24-2017 9:35 PM


Marxism is no solution to human problems
So what do Karl's views on theology really have to do with the idea that the majority of people should be organised enough to leverage their power over the wealthy few?
Well, for starters that's a false and destructive analysis of the problems that can only make things worse.
It's interesting how people think Marxism offers any real solutions to social problems, especially to me after reading as far as I have in the book about Marx and Satan. Unfortunately Marxism has become the popular framework for thinking about these problems and prying people loose from it would be a monumental project.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Riggamortis, posted 06-24-2017 9:35 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Riggamortis, posted 06-24-2017 10:28 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 141 of 381 (813243)
06-24-2017 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Riggamortis
06-24-2017 10:28 PM


Re: Marxism is no solution to human problems
It supposes that the wealthy few are leveraging their wealth against the interests of the many and therefore calls for the many to leverage their number against the few.
The wealthy are so blatantly manipulating our democracies that I cannot fathom how you think it's a 'false and destructive analysis'. It would help if you'd argue it, rather than just assert it.
I'm not educated enough in that area to argue it, I'm for laws that restrict any kind of exploitation where it can be identified, but otherwise it seems to me that private wealth is a good thing for society. The complaint that it's evil in itself is fairly called Envy and has nothing to do with societal ills. Where there are clearly societal ills due to private wealth, however, I would say they are in the hands of people like Soros who fund violent protests and manipulate politics to a destructive end.
There's some really silly idea that the wealth possessed by the wealthy deprives others of wealth, as if there's some finite amount to go around. But wealth is created by enterprise, it grows, it isn't static. Until you start taking it away from people and giving it to others. THEN you produce poverty.
As I said I don't feel I know enough to argue this, but those are the thoughts I have for what it's worth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Riggamortis, posted 06-24-2017 10:28 PM Riggamortis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by JonF, posted 06-25-2017 9:02 AM Faith has not replied

  
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