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Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 196 of 212 (825056)
12-06-2017 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Minnemooseus
12-06-2017 11:06 PM


Re: Ethics Committee trial now
I can tell you have high regard and warm feelings for Senator Al Franken. I like him very much, too.

—Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-06-2017 11:06 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 197 of 212 (825057)
12-06-2017 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Rrhain
12-06-2017 2:54 PM


Re: Seventh Time, Percy
Percy likely does not have the natural sympathy for you as he does for these women. Rightly or Wrongly.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Rrhain, posted 12-06-2017 2:54 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Percy, posted 12-07-2017 12:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 198 of 212 (825058)
12-07-2017 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
12-06-2017 11:56 PM


Re: Seventh Time, Percy
Phat writes:

Percy likely does not have the natural sympathy for you as he does for these women.

That’s not true. If you click on “Rrhain posts only” and read all his posts in this thread you’ll see he has two topics, neither having to do with the topic of this thread (one is a moderation issue from 2008). Combined with the combative tone I thought it best not to respond.

—Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 12-06-2017 11:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Rrhain, posted 12-08-2017 4:02 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 199 of 212 (825072)
12-07-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by NoNukes
12-06-2017 6:28 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes writes:

I think that is irrelevant who my daughter votes for.


So you can "do right" by your daughter by getting rid of the guy she wants to vote for?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 12-06-2017 6:28 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2017 2:52 PM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 200 of 212 (825079)
12-07-2017 12:08 PM


It's Over
Senator Al Franken (D-MN) today announced he will be resigning from the Senate. His successor will be appointed by Minnesota governor Mark Dayton, a Democrat. There will then be a special election in 2018 to decide who serves out the remainder of Franken's term until 2020. Article here: Sen. Al Franken Announces He Will Resign

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : "R-MN"=> "D-MN".


Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by caffeine, posted 12-12-2017 4:46 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 201 of 212 (825081)
12-07-2017 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by ringo
12-07-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
So you can "do right" by your daughter by getting rid of the guy she wants to vote for?

Yes, ringo. That is exactly what I am saying. Just as I am saying that despite the fact that Al Franken would otherwise have been my pick, I support him being gone. I've even explained my reasoning. Similarly, Roy Moore should not be a senator regardless of what Republicans are willing to do. What is so hard for you to understand?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 12-07-2017 10:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 12-08-2017 4:14 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 12-08-2017 10:45 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3580
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 202 of 212 (825093)
12-07-2017 8:58 PM


Just a couple of links
https://freethoughtblogs.com/.../12/07/a-lose-lose-situation

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/...eech-denies-some-allegations

Too busy to post a real message right now.

Moose

Added Dec 8 etc, 2017:
https://mic.com/...here-more-resignations-to-come#.WHogEln0R

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/...a_Investigation_Testimony

https://freethoughtblogs.com/...e-on-the-franken-resignation

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...86-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html - By Garrison Keillor, dated Nov. 28

And some Garrison Keillor links:

https://www.npr.org/...-behavior-minnesota-public-radio-says

http://www.startribune.com/...improper-behavior/460802703/#1

http://abcnews.go.com/...rong-dismiss-investigation-51641909

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...llor-allegations-stand-out

Back to Franken (added 12-11-17):

http://www.twincities.com/...ota-republican-gov-arne-carlson

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added Dec 8, 2017

Edited by Minnemooseus, : More.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Again.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : More links added.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Tweak.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added another link.


    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 203 of 212 (825099)
12-08-2017 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Percy
12-06-2017 4:09 PM


Eighth Time, Percy
How many times do you need to be asked before you swallow your pride and answer?

It happened to me, Percy. Do you believe me?

Was I sexually assaulted?

And if Franken must resign, why are you still here? Your own actions here on this board condoning homophobia are just as horrendous, to the point of you actually allowing one of the prime instigators to stay simply because he apologized. Is harassment of gay people not as bad?

Your harassment of those who stood up included me, Percy. I accuse you. And you've never apologized for it.

Do you believe me?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 4:09 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 204 of 212 (825102)
12-08-2017 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Percy
12-07-2017 12:23 AM


Ninth Time, Percy
Percy responds to Phat:

quote:
If you click on “Rrhain posts only” and read all his posts in this thread you’ll see he has two topics, neither having to do with the topic of this thread (one is a moderation issue from 2008).

To use your words:

That's not true.

Seems like we have to repeat the process just like when you neglected to read what was happening on your own board. This seems to be a habit with you, Percy: You can't take any criticism of your actions, to the point that you will lie about things rather than simply do your job.

My first post on this thread, Message 36, was in response to Minnemooseus' post. We were giving the latest details on the 2008 election.

This continued on with:

Message 41 to Granny Magda saying that the length of the recount process hadn't destroyed Minnesota like the Republicans were claiming would happen with the Florida recount, Message 43 to RAZD giving the latest recount numbers.

Message 45 to RAZD discussing the NORC review of the Florida recount and the election calendar with regard to the President and the Congress.

Message 47 to Coyote referring to Franken as a "clown" and the importance of Congress actually taking Presidential offenses seriously.

Message 49 to Coyote's attempt to run away from his own argument (wherein I repeated his own words back to him, "Do you have anything constructive to pass on to us or is that all you've got?")

Message 52 to Coyote where he once again runs away (he claims he doesn't come to this site for "liberal talking points" and yet decides to enter a thread devoted to a liberal running for the Senate only to become shocked, SHOCKED that someone might espouse liberal philosophy in his general direction.)

Message 55 to Wounded King confirming that the recount was over and the Coleman lawsuit was beginning.

Message 160 where I asked you to be more specific about what you meant when you said, "I believe the women." It is where I gave details about something that happened to me which is nearly identical to the scenario that Franken has been accused of. You failed to respond.

Message 169 where I noticed that you failed to respond and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.

Message 170 to Phat where I said that yes, men are pigs, that this is not surprising to learn, and that I can only hope that this current moment won't be lost.

Message 171 where I once again notice that you haven't responded and asked you to respond. I asked you to think about your response regarding Keillor and why you can't apply that reasoning to Franken. You failed to respond.

Message 172 where I once again notice that you haven't responded but instead started engaging in hypocrisy where you demand Franken's immediate resignation while trying to maintain your own innocence regarding any similar actions you may have done that could come back to haunt you. I pointed out that those actions you're so worried about aren't "accidental," to use your words, but were actual and pervasive when you allowed rampant homophobia to run through your board, banned everybody who was standing up against it, and reminded you that you still haven't apologized (I didn't think I needed to point out that Franken has apologized, but I guess I do since you don't seem to understand how this is relevant.) I asked you to live up to your own standard of "Integrity, honesty, principle, virtue, truth, decency, goodness, virtue [sic], generosity, kindness, character." If you feel that Franken needs to go due to his actions, why are you still here? You failed to respond.

Message 182 where I once again notice that you haven't responded, reminded you of the scenario that happened to me, and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.

Message 184 where I once again notice that you haven't responded, reminded you of the scenario that happened to me, and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.

Message 191 where I once again notice that you haven't responded, reminded you of the scenario that happened to me, and asked you to respond. You failed to respond.

Thus, your claim that I "have two topics" is trivially shown to be false. I have quite a number of topics. Indeed, the most recent posts have all been focused on a single one, but that is primarily because you keep refusing to respond to direct questions. This could have been easily handled if you had simply bothered to respond.

But just like last time, you ignored it and here we are.

quote:
Combined with the combative tone I thought it best not to respond.

No, you thought it best not to respond because you would be caught in your own hypocrisy. The only reason it has become more and more intense in your direction is your transparent avoidance. This is all about your sanctimonious demands for Franken to resign, hiding behind a refrain of "I believe the women," without explaining what it is you mean by that statement given that you have another example staring you in the face.

As I said in that very first post to you, "So is it possible that things might be more complicated?" That you claim discussing the specifics of what Franken did and what it means is off-topic shows just how far down the rabbit hole of your own hypocrisy you have fallen.

But I'm willing to let your own actions go if you simply answer the one question that started it all:

It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted, Percy?

If I wasn't, then by what justification do you call for Franken to resign?

This gets to continue and stop being about your pathetic attempts to avoid responsibility for your actions as soon as you engage and defend your own argument:

When you say, "I believe the women," what does that mean? It happened to me, Percy. Was I sexually assaulted? I have often said (including here...including in my original post to you that started this mess) that intent is not magic. Just because you don't mean to do something doesn't mean it didn't happen or that you aren't responsible for the damage that was done.

But it also goes the other way: Reaction isn't magic, either. Just because you have been wronged doesn't mean the person who did the wrong is the worst thing in the world. We can believe both people's sides of an argument and use that to determine how we respond.

Can't we?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Percy, posted 12-07-2017 12:23 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 205 of 212 (825103)
12-08-2017 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
12-07-2017 2:52 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to ringo:

quote:
quote:
So you can "do right" by your daughter by getting rid of the guy she wants to vote for?

Yes, ringo. That is exactly what I am saying.


So the same question to you as to Percy:

It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted?

Might the situation be a bit more complicated? Are you confident in substituting your opinion about "doing right" by your daughter for your daughter's?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2017 2:52 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2017 2:11 AM Rrhain has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 206 of 212 (825121)
12-08-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
12-07-2017 2:52 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes writes:

I support him being gone.


I think he did the right thing (politically) to resign. But I think he should run again to let the voters decide. Democracy is on a slippery slope when we start deciding a priori who somebody else "should" be allowed to vote for.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2017 2:52 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3580
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 207 of 212 (825157)
12-09-2017 1:49 AM


Why no ethics committee hearing for Franken
I was hoping that calling for an ethics committee hearing was going to be Al's message on this past Thursday, and not a resignation.

As best I know, Al was the only one to have called for such a hearing. Who is being served by such not having happened?

There will be a separate message from me later, about the resignation itself.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 208 of 212 (825158)
12-09-2017 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Rrhain
12-08-2017 4:14 AM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
So the same question to you as to Percy:

It happened to me. Was I sexually assaulted?

Might the situation be a bit more complicated? Are you confident in substituting your opinion about "doing right" by your daughter for your daughter's?

I have no idea what you are talking about.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 12-08-2017 4:14 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Rrhain, posted 12-12-2017 4:06 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6210
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 209 of 212 (825315)
12-12-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by NoNukes
12-09-2017 2:11 AM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to me:

quote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

Have you not been reading the thread? You responded to ringo:

quote:
quote:
So you can "do right" by your daughter by getting rid of the guy she wants to vote for?

Yes, ringo. That is exactly what I am saying.

So I was referring back to my own experience that I detailed in Message 160:

Let me tell of an incident that happened to me. I was in a play, Cabaret, playing Cliff. As you might know from the show, Cliff and Sally have a kiss. So you rehearse the kiss.

And then, during one performance, that kiss came with something extra. She stuck her tongue in my mouth. That was decidedly *not* what we rehearsed.

I confronted her about it after the performance and she admitted that she thought something was off in the scene. When I told her that it's because she put her tongue in my mouth, she was mortified. She didn't realize that she had done it.

So here's the question: Did she sexually harass/assault me? The specifics are pretty close to the incident that happened with Franken. So is what happened to me the same thing?

What if I said that I felt violated? What if I said that didn't feel comfortable explaining just how much I felt violated and only now do I feel OK with it to be able to relate my story?

What if I said that it wasn't a big deal? That I understand that she was acting? She was getting into the scene and momentarily forgot herself?

So was I sexually assaulted? I routinely say that intent is not magic (I even said it in that post.) That she didn't mean to do it doesn't mean she didn't do it and she needs to live with the consequences of her actions. But by the same token, my reaction to it doesn't get to magically define it, either. We need to pay attention to intent and reaction, but they aren't the sole factors. Things are complicated.

So if this happened to your daughter and she told you it was no big deal, are you going to substitute your judgement for hers? Remember, Tweeden didn't want Franken to resign or be removed from office.

Perhaps things are complicated.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2017 2:11 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2017 10:34 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1359
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 210 of 212 (825317)
12-12-2017 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Percy
12-07-2017 12:08 PM


Re: It's Over
Senator Al Franken (R-MN) today announced he will be resigning from the Senate.

Freudian slip now he's accused of sexual impropriety?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 12-07-2017 12:08 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Percy, posted 12-12-2017 6:50 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
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