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Author | Topic: R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Huh? How could your preference have any relation to Sproul's preference or my preference? How could your preference of ice cream be related to the topic? ringo writes:
Not sure I agree. What you would rather have is not pertinent either to Sproul or to reality. I myself would "rather have" a God who comes when I call and otherwise leaves me alone - but if I don't get what I prefer, why should you?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I read a good article about John Knox (1514-1572), Presbyterian with a sword~
It mentioned the power of religion in those days...the Roman Catholic Church in particular.
quote:Of course, immorality has always been represented in religious men as much as it has in politics and any other profession. Knox was a fiery orator and reformer, and his life likely was forged by the struggle of his day. The struggle at that time was literally a matter of life or death. quote: And so on and so forth...It seems to me that the American Protestants of Calvinist persuasion have been seduced by money moreso than threatened with any loss of life. RC Sproul and others often host talks together to reaffirm unity and agree upon doctrine. The earlier reformers had a passion and zeal no doubt forged by the persecution which they suffered. Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real. I mean, how many people would risk the loss of life, limb and property were they simply con artists?Comments? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Protestants in Catholic countries risked persecution, so did Catholics in Protestant countries. Fringe groups tended to be persecuted by the establishment everywhere.
So, who’s right ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar are being persecuted by the Buddhist majority. So Islam is real and Buddhism is not?
Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real. Phat writes:
Why do you always go to "con artists"? Can't people just be wrong?
I mean, how many people would risk the loss of life, limb and property were they simply con artists?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Expand your reading sources. Knox was a radical terrorist.
Phat writes: Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real. That is another really really stupid argument. Was the long march evidence that Mao's cause was just? Was the Bolshevik revolution evidence that Lenin's cause was just? Was the deaths of so many Cuban supporters of Castro evidence that his cause was just? People often do wrong things. People often die for dumb causes. Protestants persecuted Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics persecuted Protestants. Protestant Parliamentarians persecuted Protestant Monarchists. Protestants and Roman Catholics persecuted Jews and Muslims and Druid and Native American Indians and Mormons and anyone else that was handy. And almost none of it had anything to do with religion but rather who controlled the power and wealth.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
John Calvin wrote a book similar to Sprouls and of course he did it first. It likely is what Sproul based his book on:Institutes Of The Christian Religion
RC Sproul: Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith As I compare and contrast both books side by side, I am struck with many similarities of belief. First of all, Calvins arrogance was greater than Sprouls. To wit:
Institutes writes: prefixed to the second edition, published at strasburg in 1539.In the First Edition of this work, having no expectation of the success which God has, in his goodness, been pleased to give it, I had, for the greater part, performed my office perfunctorily, as is usual in trivial undertakings. But when I perceived that almost all the godly had received it with a favour which I had never dared to wish, far less to hope for, being sincerely conscious that I had received much more than I deserved, I thought I should be very ungrateful if I did not endeavour, at least according to my humble ability, to respond to the great kindness which had been expressed towards me, and which spontaneously urged me to diligence. I therefore ask no other favour from the studious for my new work than that which they have already bestowed upon me beyond my merits. I feel so much obliged, that I shall be satisfied if I am thought not to have made a bad return for the gratitude I owe. This return I would have made much earlier, had not the Lord, for almost two whole years, exercised me in an extraordinary manner. But it is soon enough if well enough. I shall think it has appeared in good season when I perceive that it produces some fruit to the Church of God. I may add, that my object in this work was to prepare and train students of theology for the study of the Sacred Volume, so that they might both have an easy introduction to it, and be able to proceed in it, with unfaltering step, seeing I have endeavoured to give such a summary of religion in all its parts, and have digested it into such an order as may make it not difficult for any one, who is rightly acquainted with it, to ascertain both what he ought principally to look for in Scripture, and also to what head he ought to refer whatever is contained in it. Having thus, as it were, paved the way, I shall not feel it necessary, in any Commentaries on Scripture which I may afterwards publish, to enter into long discussions of doctrines or dilate on common places, and will, therefore, always compress them. In this way the pious reader will be saved much trouble and weariness, provided he comes furnished with a knowledge of the present work as an essential prerequisite. Basically, the whole doctrine of what we now call Calvinism was laid out in this book. Original Sin is there, Gods Sovereignty, all of the issues which we disagree with amongst each other at EvC in our religious debates...One example here. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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It might be worthwhile looking at four relatively contemporary examples; Calvin's Institutes and Luther's 95 Theses and The True Law of Free Monarchies; or, The Reciprocal and Mutual Duty Betwixt a Free King and His Natural Subjects of James I &VI and the works of John Locke which you already glanced over. These four seminal positions pretty much outlined the struggles for power in Europe over the next several hundred years or so.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
All Calvin formulated of Christian theology in his Institutes was the same tenets the other Reformers also spelled out in their doctrinal work, most clearly Luther. Calvin's style may be the main difference, so that he seems to describe some doctrines more emphatically than the others did. But the doctrine of Election is in the Bible and all of them recognized that, the doctrine of Predestination, all of it.
There has been a resurgence of Reformed teaching in the churches over the last couple of decades by the way, most of it from the Calvinist perspective, an increase in good clear sharp doctrinal preaching that replaces the earler mushier kinds of preaching in the churches. Many Reformed Seminaries have grown up during this time. John MacArthur has even described this as Revival and considers it the best thing to have happened to the Church in a long time. Also I might mention that R C Sproul is being aired by my local Christian radio on the weekends with a series he did on all the various covenants in the Bible, if you're interested. Today's aired this morning and will be repeated again tonight at 9 PM Pacific time, on the internet too, at Pilgrim Radio.com ABE: Found the Sproul covenant series at You Tube which is more accessible: Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: Faith brings up a point. (Of course, you will say that people can and do use the Bible to support whatever philosophy, belief, or doctrine that they want.) But lets examine the scriptures of TULIP. But the doctrine of Election is in the Bible and all of them recognized that, the doctrine of Predestination, all of it. Sproul has his views on it, and much of what he says unabahedly backs it up as the preferred Theology within his club. TULIP and Reformed Theology: An Introduction Now let me find the scriptures that they use to support the idea: Total Depravity (Original Sin) Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 1:18—25; 3:9—23; 7:18; 1 John 1:8—10 Unconditional Election: Romans 8:28—39; Ephesians 1:3—14; 2:8; 2 Timothy 1:9, 10 Limited Atonement: John 6:37—39; 17:6—12; Romans 5:8—10; 1 John 4:9, 10; Revelation 5:9, 10 Irresistable Grace: John 10:3, 4; 11:38—46; Galatians 1:15; Revelation 22:17 All that the Theologians seemed they were trying to do was to attempt to understand and define God in light of scripture. You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists. Granted TULIP speaks of a God that I would prefer not to believe in...but after all, I need to have a frame of reference to conceptualize the God whom I believe actually is. And i dont really like the universalist idea of a God compiled from many varying belief systems either. I trust that God Himself will ultimately guide me into understanding Him better...eventually.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sheesh Quote mining and proof texts.
Let's take stuff out of context because the rubes are too stupid to have actually read the Bible.
Phat writes: You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists. Actually I expect that as a very minimum requirement. What you describe is what a snake-oil salesman does. Should we expect those who are marketing the product to be honest about what is says? When it comes to religion should we settle for them selling the sizzle instead of the steak?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I agree that honesty is important. There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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The first point is that - as we have seen - the Bible does not consistently support TULIP. Saying that TULIP is Biblical then is either of little value (if it means that the points are among the many conflicting ideas in the Bible) or requires more analysis then just quoting verses that support (or seem to support) the points.
quote: I don’t see why not - excepting quibbles. They should certainly care about the differing depictions of God in the Bible and recognise that in some cases God appears as a character in a story. And they should certainly care about the process by which the Bible came to us. That is how they should work out their ideas of God - that’s their job as theologians.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good argument we have developing here!
jar writes: Should we expect those who are marketing the product to be honest about what is says?When it comes to religion should we settle for them selling the sizzle instead of the steak? TULIP hardly seems like sizzle to me. If anything, it describes a God who is uncaring. So what if He has the power to do whatever He deems right? My point is that if we are to describe GOD at all, we should at least come to a consensus regarding the GOD who is rather than simply pointing out the characters of God created by earlier humans. As believers, cant we at least start with the belief that GOD is? (apart from any human attempts at characterization?) Next, are we in any sort of agreement that of the many characters of God described in the Bible, there is one who seems more likely?
PaulK writes: So we can agree that we are working out our ideas of a God we can agree on? Or are we gonna remain uncommitted and philosophical? They should certainly care about the differing depictions of God in the Bible and recognize that in some cases God appears as a character in a story. And they should certainly care about the process by which the Bible came to us. That is how they should work out their ideas of God - that is their job as theologians..Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: I’m not a theologian or even a Christian, so I’m not likely to agree with the conclusion. But i’m up for discussion about what the Bible says, and how to evaluate it.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market. Nonsense. We need to throw God away.
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