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Author | Topic: Does Atheism = No beliefs? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
GDR writes:
quote: A believer. Hence not an atheist. And not really an agnostic, either. They aren't saying they don't know on a fundamental level. They are saying they don't know about specifics due to lack of evidence. There is a difference between saying, "Someone was here but I know nothing about who it was," and saying, "I don't know if anyone was here or not."
quote: Huh? Why does that destroy his belief? That is the essence of theism: Belief. That is the very thing that defines atheism: Lack of belief.
quote: Maybe not in the strictest sense, but that would be splitting hairs.
quote: What's wrong with "believer" and/or "theist"? That they don't have a fancy proper noun to attach to themselves doesn't stop them from believing.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Rrhain writes:
Well you can’t call them a theist because they don’t claim to believe in an deity that is engaged in any sense with creation. He simply leans towards the concept of an intelligent creator of some kind but has no thought out understanding of why he thinks that is the case. He is somewhat atheistic in that he can’t say for sure whether or not this being exists and doesn’t hold any religious beliefs. What's wrong with "believer" and/or "theist"? That they don't have a fancy proper noun to attach to themselves doesn't stop them from believing.I don’t understand the objection to using the term agnostic. It certainly seems to fit the definition used in the last sentence of this wiki quote. quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: So we can call him a theist in the general sense, which includes Deists. As your quote says:
Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities
That broad definition is clearly right.
quote: The obvious objection is that it doesn’t describe the position that you’re asking about. He can be an agnostic as well - provided you allow that atheists can be agnostics too (and a lot of people don’t). But it doesn’t describe the fact that he believes that there is a god of some sort.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes: So we can call him a theist in the general sense, which includes Deists. As your quote says: Not really. Here is the definition from merriam webster
quote: He simply believes that life is the result of an intelligent creator. He doesn't believe that this intelligence is to be worshipped or that the intelligence rules in any sense of the word. He can't be classified as a deist because has no idea whether this intelligence has any interest in this existence or not.
PaulK writes: Theism is broadly defined as the belief in the existence of the Supreme Being or deities That broad definition is clearly right. An intelligent cause for existence does not mean that it has to be considered either a supreme being, nor a deity. He just doesn't have any beliefs other than the idea that we are more likley to be the result of intelligence rather than the chance collection of mindless particles. Between the ages of 18 and 36 I considered myself culturally Christian but as far as my actual beliefs were concerned I was agnostic.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t think that it is a god. We’re talking very general theism here, not monotheism Anyway, atheism, theism and agnosticism all relate to belief in God or gods. If you haven’t given his view on that then none of those terms are applicable. So at this stage either he is a theist or you haven’t given us the right information.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
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GDR responds to me:
quote: Why? Deists are believers. That's the defining characteristic of being a theist: Believing in god. Your own definition says so: "Theism is broadly defined in the existence of the supreme being or deities." There's no indication about what this god is supposed to do or how it is supposed to relate to anything. Just because your god doesn't want to have anything to do with you (for whatever reason) doesn't mean you don't believe. He certainly isn't atheistic because he believes in god. That is the defining characteristic of atheism: Lack of belief. If you believe, even if it is nebulous and vague, you aren't an atheist.
quote: There is a difference between not really knowing what you believe in and not knowing if you believe in the first place or thinking you can never know. I can know that I have feelings for something without really being able to explain them, but that is different from knowing if I have feelings. With regard to your quote, it has atheism wrong...it isn't a rejection of theism for atheism is the logical base state. It is the burden of those who claim the existence of gods to provide evidence for such. The atheist does not "reject" god but rather has no evidence for god. Instead, theists reject atheism (for what they think are valid reasons). But, we've had this argument on this board many times. I only bring it up because it is a subtle difference. And that's what we're doing with regard to agnosticism compared to theism. With regard to its definition of agnosticism, it is to my point: Such a person does know that there is "something." They may not know anything about it and be unable to learn anything about it, but they do believe that there is something there to be unknowable. F'rinstance, I can know that you have a toothbrush in your bathroom, but I have no idea what color it is and since it's yours, I'm not going to be in your bathroom, and you're never going to show it to me, I can never know. Thus, I am a believer about your toothbrush. Any agnosticism I have is about its trait, not its existence. Thus, since they believe in god, even though the target of that belief cannot be readily described, they aren't agnostic. They're believers. It's why Buddhism is a religion and not just a philosophy. The supernatural aspects can be very vague (to the point of having a very nebulous conceptualization of "god"), but they are still there. There is a difference between having a philosophy of "no attachment" (and I know that Buddhism is so much more than that) and thinking that tenet has some cosmic significance. Of course, it's sorta like saying at what point does grey become white.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Just a quick question. What would you call someone who believes that there probably is an intelligent cause for our existence, but does not adhere to any specific religion, or even any particular belief in the nature of that intelligence? A Deist.
He isn't really theistic because he doesn't necessarily believe that this intelligence is at all involved with the world now, That the definition of a cold deist.Deism - Wikipedia he isn't really a deist because he acknowledges that possibly he/she/it could be involved and he isn't an atheist either. That's a warm deist.
Wouldn't agnostic fit that person better than any other term. I suggest that there is a lot of people who fall into that category. These people believe that something created the universe - the only name we have for that is god. They are therefore deists. There are no agnostics, by definition.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
GDR writes:
quote: So polytheists who focus on a deity who wasn't the creator/ruler of the universe (say, ancient Athenians) aren't really theists?
quote: Does deism require that? And more importantly, does theism?
quote: Unless you're suggesting that the creation of the universe is something that had purely physical origins and can be carried out by a non-supernatural being through physical means, then yeah, it does.
quote: The Behe Defense? If we don't call it "god," then we can say with a straight face that we don't actually mean "god"? What is this "intelligence"? How does it do what it does? Even if it never interacts with us ever again, was its action upon the universe physical or metaphysical? If the latter, then it's god no matter how much you don't want to be associated with that term.
quote: And most atheists who are raised in Christian nations have this concept to a degree. F'rinstance, atheists celebrate Christmas.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Rrhain writes: F'rinstance, atheists celebrate Christmas. Atheist Christmas is the funnest Christmas!All the good stuff, none of the boring stuff!!
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
I think I do. It's just that you don't want to answer the question.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
I don't speak Russian. It's OK when you don't want to answer questions.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
George Carlin and Carl Sagan...two atheists with similar views. As a believer, I disagree yet respect their ideas.
GDR writes: .....Atheists walk humbly with each other....as humans...yet don't consider God....much as one would not consider a spaghetti monster ambling with them towards the sunset. My only critique of such a philosophy is that it raises humans to a responsible level of being fully responsible for our own survival...which scares me a bit. An intelligent cause for existence does not mean that it has to be considered either a supreme being, nor a deity. He just doesn't have any beliefs other than the idea that we are more likley to be the result of intelligence rather than the chance collection of mindless particles. Between the ages of 18 and 36 I considered myself culturally Christian but as far as my actual beliefs were concerned I was agnostic. "He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.Micah 6:8" Edited by Phat, : added point Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Atheists walk humbly with each other as humans.... That sounds like religion speak to me.
yet don't consider God....much as one would not consider a spaghetti monster ambling with them towards the sunset. That's just bizarre...
My only critique of such a philosophy is that it raises humans to a responsible level of being fully responsible for our own survival...which scares me a bit. That's not a critique, that's your fear of having to be responsible for yourself. That fear is why gods are invented by people. It explains the whole caboodle. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Noah had to build his own ark.
My only critique of such a philosophy is that it raises humans to a responsible level of being fully responsible for our own survival...
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You love that analogy, dont you? Consider that Noah had no idea that it was going to rain, had no particular love of animals that we can see, and was ridiculed for his efforts. He didn't have to do anything! He was simply obeying voices in his head. Noah had to build his own ark.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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