Christianity and the End Times

The thing is, Matthew 24 gives two different descriptions of His coming. From 29 to 30 Jesus is describing what happens after the tribulation, which is so horrific not many will survive it, so it is very unlikely there would have been any life as usual going on, such as marrying and giving in marriage, which is to characterize the time just before His coming as described in verse 37 as like the days of Noah.What happens right after the tribulation is pretty dramatic and gets pretty loud too, unlike what is happening in the period described from verse 36 tp 42 where life is going on as usual and His coming is a complete surprise for those who are not prepared.This is why it is interpreted that there are two separate comings being described, the second being the rapture, and the first the final coming of Jesus to earth in power and glory with the trumpet sound and so on.I've divided the passage into sections to show the distinctions: So the Rapture is to be like the days of Noah, coming upon us completely by surprise as life is going on as usual, but the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth will follow upon a time of great tribulation when life could not have been going on as usual, and it will come with a lot of fanfare and nobody will be able to miss it.Also, if the Rapture is to come upon us like the days of Noah, when those who were unprepared were swept away in the Flood, the analogy continues in that the Great Tribulation is analogous to the Flood.abe: I am, frankly, terrified for the people who will be left behind. LISTEN UP.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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The thing is, Matthew 24 gives two different descriptions of His coming. From 29 to 30 Jesus is describing what happens after the tribulation, which is so horrific not many will survive it, so it is very unlikely there would have been any life as usual going on, such as marrying and giving in marriage, which is to characterize the time just before His coming as described in verse 37 as like the days of Noah.

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That what it says seems odd doesn’t change what it says.The sign of the Fig Tree (v32-35) makes it clear that the Tribulation is a part of the signs preceding the second coming.

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So the Rapture is to be like the days of Noah, coming upon us completely by surprise as life is going on as usual, but the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth will follow upon a time of great tribulation when life could not have been going on as usual, and it will come with a lot of fanfare and nobody will be able to miss it

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Did you miss v37 ? Verses 36-42 are about the Second Coming. It’s right there in the text.

The Second Coming is in two parts, the Rapture and the final coming as conquerer, with the tribulation in between.The parable of the fig tree comes as a pause between the two descriptions.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The first part of His coming is as a Thief in the Night when He takes away His Church and leaves the world completely to the devices of fallen nature governed by Satan through the Antichrist without our interference. I'm sure that will seem like a great blessing at first. Then after you all make a huge mess of things He'll come for good Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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The Second Coming is in two parts, the Rapture and the final coming as conquerer, with the tribulation in between.

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That certainly isn’t in Matthew 24.

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The parable of the fig tree comes as a pause between the two descriptions

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Sure and it is telling us that the signs - including the Tribulation - are the warning that the Second Coming is near. The second description follows directly on from the parable - it will occur after the signs.

You are way underestimating how devastating the Tribulation is going to be.

No, I’m just following the text. Arguing that the text doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t change what it says.

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Just a preliminary question: Is Matthew 24:36-42 the only place where the secret rapture is described?

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I think I wrote some experiential and subjective things and some outward and objective things. I try to keep balance. In replying to this question I will attempt a balanced answer.First, I would think the Lord's words of Luke 17:34-37 are about the same concept. Even then in our sleeping we must learn to have our mind set on the spirit where the Holy Spirit mingles with us is. In our daily mundane things of duty we must learn to be before the Lord Jesus in a watchful way. Revelation 3:10 is also a conditional promise to be caught away. Any conditional promise implies that some will fulfill the condition and some will not. This too should be a reference to a pre-tribulation catching away as a reward for readiness, watching, keeping endurance by grace. Since it is to be kept from the very HOUR of the trial it must mean taken OUT of the world. The lesson of enduring trial through His grace has ALREADY been learned. When the world passes through those learning to live moment by moment in Christ are rewarded for their EARLY graduation from these lessons.Let me now turn to the word "secretive" per se. Revelation 3:3 is a warning that believers will not know the moment He comes for some worthy to snatch away in rapture. This is a warning of an unannounced and rather secretive moment of Christ's arrival. Lack of knowing the time, however, may be supplemented by WATCHING and LIVING in a vigilant state. We live as if He could be here to take us at ANY time.I would hasten to add that don't get the impression that Jesus EVER encourages non-watchfulness. It would be erroneous to assume that by a secretive pre-tribulation rapture He encourages sloppy and automatic rapture at any other time.The best example of this caveat might be the warning to watch in Revelation 16:15. The surrounding events of this warning indicate the conclusion of the great world wide trial rather than the period just before. And here too Jesus speaks of His arriving as a thief - unannounced and stealthful. The context is the final battle of Armageddon which is of course a the conclusion of the great tribulation. The principle of worthiness to not be caught ashamed or off guard is not negated simply because SOME miss the early rapture.Think again of a crop. There are those plants that ripen early as Firstfruits - a minority. Then there is a majority of those ripening latter as a Harvest. And there is even the Gleanings of those plants which ripen last.The speakings of Christ's coming to take away ALL of the crop of His people on earth may well indicate that not all are taken at the same moment, yet all are taken - Firstfruits, Harvest, and Gleanings.The development of the internal life within should never be taken for granted.
The growth of His divine life within influencing His action of reaping should never be taken for granted.Early Rapture is the response of OBEDIENCE not the escape of cowardice.
We are exhorted to pray and request that we stand before Him having escaped trial. To be watchful and petitioning God that we escape these things of world-wide calamity and stand before the Son of Man, is the response of OBEDIENCE to His command. And if it means to stand before the Son of Man in Heaven as a result of rapture pre-tribulation style, that would be the response of OBEDIENCE to Christ's command not the ducking of responsibility.The exhortation is to beseech that the believer PREVAIL to ESCAPE first rather than prevail through the things. The latter is good. The former is even better. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Luke 17 has so much text in common with Matthew 24 it is apparent that it is the same material.And Luke 17:30 tells us that this, too, is about the Second Coming, not a Secret Rapture.Revelation 3:10 does not mention how any will be preserved - and it is in a message to the Church in Philadelphia. Verse 3:11 says that Jesus is coming quickly - so it clearly reads as referring to the current membership of that church.Revelation 3:3 only repeats the warning to watch for the signs.Luke 21:36 does not say anything about how the disaster may be escaped. However it might well refer to fleeing from - or staying away from - Jerusalem as advised in verse 21.So, still no secret rapture.

And all stuff that was supposed to happen about 1900 years ago.

Hi Paulk. I have to admit up front that I have not read carefully ALL of your posts here. I think it would be more constructive if I paid closer attention to some of your other posts.This will take some time for me to at least understand how you think about Matthew 24.

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Luke 17 has so much text in common with Matthew 24 it is apparent that it is the same material.

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The synoptic gospels share much material. You do recognize though that there could be differences in EMPHASIS as each evangelist writes his own presentation of Christ's words.

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And Luke 17:30 tells us that this, too, is about the Second Coming, not a Secret Rapture.

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It says - If a minority of saints are heedful to the exhortation to watch, certainly the Son of Man will be revealed to them when raptured.If some heed the exhortation of Luke 21:36 certainly to them the Son of Man before whom they stand is revealed in heaven to which they are raptured. That certainly would be the Son of Man revealed to them. And to a great extent it would be a revelation of the Son of Man to those Christians on earth who noticed that SOME of their brethren, like Enoch, are not found but have been taken. To some extent that would be the Son of Man being revealed to them as well.In Revelation 14:1-5 we see that before the major events of the great tribulation, SOME early ripened "Firstfruits" are standing in heaven before the Lamb in some heavenly Mt. Zion. We know it is in heaven because the sound of their singing is "out of heaven" (v.2) Certainly they are raptured and the Lamb, Who is also "the Son of Man" would be mightily revealed to THEM. This revealing of the Son of Man occurs BEFORE the Son of Man is seen reaping His Harvest at the end of the chapter in verses 14 - 16The Son of Man is revealed to the FIRSTFRUITS prior to the Son of Man being revealed to the HARVEST. So the phrase "on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed" (Luke 17:30) cannot be insisted to mean only ONE rapture.How could you insist that the Son of Man is NOT revealed to those standing upon Mt. Zion in heaven before the Lamb and the four living creatures? These people were purchased FROM the earth as early FIRSTFRUITS (14:3) and that they must WAIT until He is revealed at the reaping of the HARVEST some time latter at the END of the great tribulation?

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Revelation 3:10 does not mention how any will be preserved

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I agree. But neither does it insist that all those taken are physical virgins either.So the FIRSTFRUITS taken early because of EARLY ripening in life should include others who are equally watchful for Christ's sudden secretive rapture.I don't think that every mention of a pre-tribulation rapture MUST specify the number of people taken. The absence of the mentioning of 144,000 in Revelation 3:10 does not force us to dismiss that before the hour of trial SOME (whom Christ deems worthy of the reward) are raptured before the last three and one half years of the great tribulation.

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- and it is in a message to the Church in Philadelphia. Verse 3:11 says that Jesus is coming quickly - so it clearly reads as referring to the current membership of that church.

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The letters were practical letters to existing churches on earth at that time. Yet I firmly believe that the letters were also a PROPHECY of the development of the church on earth. And what one hears said to any ONE church is to be heeded by those who have an ear in EVERY church.That the promise to keep some vigilant and enduring ones from the hour of world wide trial is spoken specifically to the church in Philadelphia is not strong enough rationale for me to assume I who do not live in Philadelphia then or now, should not heed to exhortation. It is relevant to you and I today.He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (v.13)This sevenfold repeated exhortation to HEAR what the Spirit says carries no hint that we need NOT heed what is said to ANY individual church there.

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Revelation 3:3 only repeats the warning to watch for the signs.

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The watching of Revelation 3:3 I feel is the watching against spiritual deadness and the incomplete things of her partial revival.The previous verse - These are things which concern having a reputation be being living but actually being more spiritually dormant and deadened. The watching is for this deadness to be held in check and for the church to become LIVING. And that not only in reputation but in vitality and reality.This watching is appropriate to Christians on earth in EVERY stage of history. And even towards the end of the great tribulation it would still be relevant.

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Luke 21:36 does not say anything about how the disaster may be escaped. However it might well refer to fleeing from - or staying away from - Jerusalem as advised in verse 21.

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So, still no secret rapture.

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I will have to suspend our discussion here and resume latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't mean to be promoting any notion of cowardice or easy escape but Jesus does promise to save some from the "hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth" which surely makes it clear that is the better option.If I should be left behind I would want to be praying for courage and strength the whole time, for me and all those with me because certainly many of us will die some horrific deaths during that time, and if we manage to survive to see the Lord's return it isn't going to be easy.In other words, I don't want to minimize the Tribulation. If Jesus tells us God will shorten it because otherwise nobody would survive it we need to take seriously that it will be far beyond any of the afflictions we soft westerners have had to face. Certainly, developing the courage to go through it would be a great character builder though, so I can be of two minds about this.However, at least out of mercy I nevertheless want to exhort those who are not Christians and those Christians who are living below spiritual par to exert themselves toward the Rapture. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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If a minority of saints are heedful to the exhortation to watch, certainly the Son of Man will be revealed to them when raptured.

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That would be a very odd reading even if Matthew 24 didn’t make it clear that the Second Coming was meant.

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In Revelation 14:1-5 we see that before the major events of the great tribulation, SOME early ripened "Firstfruits" are standing in heaven before the Lamb in some heavenly Mt. Zion. We know it is in heaven because the sound of their singing is "out of heaven" (v.2)

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On the contrary. They are standing on Mount Zion (verse 1) and hear a voice from Heaven.

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Certainly they are raptured and the Lamb, Who is also "the Son of Man" would be mightily revealed to THEM. This revealing of the Son of Man occurs BEFORE the Son of Man is seen reaping His Harvest at the end of the chapter in verses 14 - 16

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Certainly ? They appear to be the 144,000 from Revelation 7:1-8 and it isn’t at all clear what happens to them between the two chapters.

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The Son of Man is revealed to the FIRSTFRUITS prior to the Son of Man being revealed to the HARVEST. So the phrase "on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed" (Luke 17:30) cannot be insisted to mean only ONE rapture.

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It doesn’t mean any sort of Rapture.

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I agree. But neither does it insist that all those taken are physical virgins either.

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And your point is ?

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The letters were practical letters to existing churches on earth at that time. Yet I firmly believe that the letters were also a PROPHECY of the development of the church on earth. And what one hears said to any ONE church is to be heeded by those who have an ear in EVERY church.

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Whatever you believe it is a fact that the words are directed at the members of one Church - at the time the Revelation was written. It promises that some of them will be spared the hour of trial which is coming soon - when Jesus returns. Yet Jesus did not return any time soon, let alone within the lifetime of those people.

Absolutely. For that matter all four Gospels are compilations of previous material either written or through the oral tradition as passed on from the disciples and eye witnesses. (Just read the start of Luke’s Gospel.) I don’t think that either of these conclusions are correct depending on what you mean by Second Coming.Jesus had a very political message for His fellow Jews and by extension for the world. He often referred to Himself in the third person and usually it was to refer to Himself as the Son of Man. The question then is why that and not Messiah even though He clearly saw Himself as just that. The answer to that question is clearly in Daniel 7, a relatively recent prophet. Daniel 7 writes this:

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13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

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In this we can see a number of things. Firstly it says that Jesus is coming to the Ancient of Days ,(obviously Yahweh), So often when it refers to Jesus coming it is referring to this. Also it talks, as it does in Exodus, about the clouds of Heaven so we can see that when it talks about Jesus ascending into a cloud it is talking about Jesus coming into the presence of God and not about ascending into a physical cloud.A major part of Jesus’ message was about the establishment of the Kingdom Obviously in this passage from Daniel it shows that the Son of Man has been given dominion over all kingdoms and that that kingdom is eternal. We can see clearly that the Kingdom is not just for some time in the future but it is for the world then and now as well.Jesus preached a Kingdom message which was full of political overtones but at the same time was both personal and corporative. The Kingdom of God’ (or the Kingdom of Heaven as Matthew uses the term), is made up of those who have truly taken Jesus’ message of love of neighbour, and even enemy, into their hearts. This is the connection between Jesus’ kingdom message and His political message.The Romans were brutal occupiers but Jesus was telling them that they should love them, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc. Essentially he is saying that the enemy is evil itself and that the Romans embodied that evil. He says then that the way to defeat evil, and by extension their Roman occupiers was through his message of love. It was about being the vehicles of God’s love for us in the world to change hearts including those of the Romans. It is easy to see why this message wasn’t well received by the majority who expected the Messiah to lead them militarily against the Romans. The Messiah was expected to defeat the Romans and rebuild the Temple. (It is easy to see why Judas, on the assumption that he was a revolutionary, was prepared to betray Him.)Jesus however said that the Romans were to be defeated by seeing their hearts changed and that the Temple would be rebuilt in the hearts of those who followed His message.
Paul gets this when he writes in Ephesians 6

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10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

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So when Jesus talks about the sun being darkened, the stars falling etc He is talking about what will happen when the Revolution takes place. He can see that it is imminent enough to happen in that generation. (Which of course it did in 70 AD.) The Jewish nation was crushed and the Temple destroyed. This explains why He would say that they run to the hills as that would be the only place to hide from Roman soldiers. Once again, it is about Jesus coming to the Father, (The Ancient of Days), as in Daniel 7. This is kinda obscure so it could simply be a message that one should always be hearing and acting on Jesus’ message of love as you never know when this life will come to an end. If it was about the so-called rapture why would he suggest leaving the city and going to the hills, or that they would have strength to escape what was going on. It is obviously about fleeing the Romans when the revolution takes place. Right you are!!

I think of all the apocalyptic texts considered Luke 17 is the only one that has a clear suggestion that it may be meant metaphorically (verses 20-21). Although a literal reading of Revelation is sufficiently implausible to suggest that may not be the intended reading.