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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 571 of 1581 (837005)
07-25-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Faith
07-25-2018 1:31 PM


Re: Consider Open Theism
Faith writes:

The Bible presents God in human terms to make Him more understandable, but those terms are a concession to our inability to grasp such a Being as He really is.

But the Bible presents God as not being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

Have you ever actually read the Bible Faith?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 1:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 3:59 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 572 of 1581 (837006)
07-25-2018 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by jar
07-25-2018 3:27 PM


Presenting God as found in the Bible
Hmmmm.don't pay jar any mind, Faith. he uses "pieces parts" out of context to make his lesson focus on the god he chooses to present to his students. I can, however, do the same thing.
God is Omnipresent:
quote:
Psalm 139:7-10: “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, if I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, even there Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will lay hold of me.”
Jeremiah 23:24: “Can a man hide himself in hiding places so I do not see him?” declares the Lord. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord.
1 Kings 8:27: “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!”
Prov. 15:3: “The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.”

God is Omniscient.
quote:
Psalm 147:5 “Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.”

Psalm 139:1-6 “O LORD, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, and are intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. You have enclosed me behind and before, and laid Your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.”

1 Jn.3:18-20 “Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.”

1) God knew Cain killed Abel though no human eye saw it – Gen.4:10
2) God knew Sarah laughed derisively in her tent about bearing a child – Gen.18:12
3) God knew Achan stole wedge of gold & hid in earth – Josh.7:11
4) God knew about David’s adultery, lying & murder & sent Nathan to him – “Thou art the man.”



Have you ever read the Bible, jar?

God is Omnipotent.

quote:
Is.40:28 “Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.”

Rev.19:6 “Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, ‘Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.’”

Job 9:4-10 “He is wise in heart and mighty in strength, who has defied Him without harm? It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, when He overturns them in His anger; who shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; who commands the sun not to shine, and sets a seal upon the stars; who alone stretches out the heavens and tramples down the waves of the sea; who makes the Bear, Orion and the Pleiades, and the chambers of the south; who does great things, unfathomable, and wondrous works without number.”

Eph.3:20 “Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us”


Granted anyone can use the Bible to present any sort of God character that they choose to present. I keep asking jar to at least play along and imagine the God of the Nicene Creed rather than a fumbling newbie learning on the job...but he seems to prefer presenting the newbie to us for some strange reason!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 3:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 4:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 576 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 4:29 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 573 of 1581 (837007)
07-25-2018 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Stile
07-25-2018 11:53 AM


Re: Some sources
I don't hypothesize about God, I accept that He is in charge of everything and I try to avoid getting too deeply into questions that are beyond human understanding. I don't e4xpect to understand everything about God. Your idea about powerful meaning is meaningless to me.

However, this idea that God's sovereignty somehow prevents us from using our intelligence and making our own judgments is false, another vgersion of hyperCalvinism I suppose.

abe: The meaning of life has become so much richer, deeper and more beautiful since I became a believer Even though I can't imagine eternity and sometimes have the unworthy idea that I could get bored, I just remind myself that God knows me better than I do and when scripture says that "in His presence are pleasures forevermore" I believe it on faith though I can't imagine it. I exoect to be happily surprised to the point of tears of joy and gratitude. This morning I heard some chapters of the book of Ezekiel read over the radio where it goes on and on about the measurements of the holy district and the lands allotted to the twelve tribes of Israel, Which I csn't understand at all though I assume it must have deep spiritual meaning that I may understand after death; and when it described trees producing fruit of all kinds and leaves that cure diseases, although I can't imagine fruits that I could never get tired of I made myself see it with the eyes of faith, that whatever it is will be good in every possible way beyond my imagining. And it made me wish again for the Rapture to come soon. /abe

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Stile, posted 07-25-2018 11:53 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 4:29 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 574 of 1581 (837010)
07-25-2018 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Phat
07-25-2018 3:59 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
Phat writes:

Hmmmm.don't pay jar any mind, Faith. he uses "pieces parts" out of context to make his lesson focus on the god he chooses to present to his students.


Phat writes:

Have you ever read the Bible, jar?


This sort of thing is beneath you. Please don't do it again.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 3:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 4:24 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 575 of 1581 (837011)
07-25-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by ringo
07-25-2018 4:21 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
And yet jar does it all the time. Is it beneath him? I'm just defending Faith since he picks on her incessantly.

I'll back off, however. You may consider being a Moderator, ringo. You have that ability!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 4:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 4:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 576 of 1581 (837012)
07-25-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Phat
07-25-2018 3:59 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
Phat writes:

Have you ever read the Bible, jar?

yes Phat, and the point is that the Bible stories present not just conflicting positions, not just conflicting descriptions of God, not just conflicting creation and flood myths, not just conflicting versions of the evnt on the Road to Damascus or the Great Commission but mutually exclusive versions.

Phat writes:

I keep asking jar to at least play along and imagine the God of the Nicene Creed rather than a fumbling newbie learning on the job...but he seems to prefer presenting the newbie to us for some strange reason!

The Nicene Creed is another creation of humans; it is NOT Biblical based but rather political in nature and a creation from hundreds of years after Jesus death.

In addition, the God of the Nicene Creed most definitely excludes the Jesus so many Christian Market.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 3:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 4:33 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 577 of 1581 (837013)
07-25-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Faith
07-25-2018 4:06 PM


Back to the topic..sort of
Faith writes:

I try to avoid getting too deeply into questions that are beyond human understanding. I don't expect to understand everything about God. Your idea about powerful meaning is meaningless to me.

Did you read the article on Open Theism? The Open Theists make a strong case. It is supported by scripture also.

Getting back to the topic, however:

PaulK writes:

But what does the Bible really say. You won’t find out from those selling an imminent apocalypse.

I intend to survey the major end-time predictions and see if they really do match the present situation.

So our main question as I see it at this point is:
Who Is The God Of The Bible?

After all, if there is to be an end, either God causes it, allows it to happen, or does not exist...in which case we are responsible for continuing our species.

I happen to believe that God allows it to happen...thus the ball is in our court.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 4:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 4:57 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 578 of 1581 (837014)
07-25-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by Phat
07-25-2018 4:24 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
Phat writes:

And yet jar does it all the time. Is it beneath him?


Mocking somebody's posting style is in the backyard of ad hominem.

Phat writes:

I'm just defending Faith....


If Faith's position was defensible, you'd be defending it instead of lashing out at people who point out where she's wrong.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 4:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 579 of 1581 (837015)
07-25-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by jar
07-25-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
jar writes:

The Nicene Creed is another creation of humans; it is NOT Biblical based but rather political in nature and a creation from hundreds of years after Jesus death.

But would you not argue that the Bible itself is a creation of humans? If so, what difference does the argument make? Metaphorically we are discussing the Endtimes if in fact such an event is inevitable or not.

So we have a line of questions.

1) Is the end times inevitable or are they simply a clever marketing ploy?

2) If God didn't exist, would humans still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise? Watch Jonathan Haight's video for some clues.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 4:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 5:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 580 of 1581 (837018)
07-25-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Phat
07-25-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Back to the topic..sort of
I read enough about Open Theism to know that it postulates God's not knowing some things and that ends my interest in it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 4:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 5:05 PM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 581 of 1581 (837019)
07-25-2018 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by Faith
07-25-2018 4:57 PM


Re: Back to the topic..sort of
So if God already knows everything that you will do, that's ok with you?

It would make me feel a bit like a zombie.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 4:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Faith, posted 07-25-2018 5:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 582 of 1581 (837020)
07-25-2018 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by Phat
07-25-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Presenting God as found in the Bible
Phat writes:

1) Is the end times inevitable or are they simply a clever marketing ploy?

And the answer depends on what you think "the End Times" mean. Remember as in all other instances the Bible provides contradictory and mutually exclusive description of what the End Times means and has constantly revised those to try to keep up with reality.

The Jewish concept of End Times as found in the Old Testament is nothing like ANY of the ones marketed by Christianity.

So far every single End Time marketed by Christianity has failed to happen.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of the many End Times prophecies or scenarios market by Christianity are likely to happen.

But there is overwhelming evidence that humans are very likely to become extinct and sooner rather than later in evolutionary time spans.

There is even stronger evidence that this solar system will come to an end.

And most of the evidence seems to point to this universe coming to an end eventually.

Phat writes:

2) If God didn't exist, would humans still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise? Watch Jonathan Haight's video for some clues.

Whether God exists or not, humans most certainly are still be capable (and perhaps likely) to foster their own demise and there is NO evidence that God would intervene in anyway. There is also overwhelming evidence we are trying very hard to foster our own and well as most other species demise.

There is no need to watch ANY video for those things to be obvious.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 4:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 583 of 1581 (837022)
07-25-2018 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by Phat
07-25-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Back to the topic..sort of
I don't know why anybody thinks anything would change simply by knowing the facts about God's nature. I love the idea that God knows me inside and out, because I know that He knows me far better than I know myself, that He is good and has my interests at heart, and I love Him and want Him that close to me. It's not that I don't have doubts and worries, but overall no, I have no problem with God's being all powerful and all knowing and present everywhere.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 5:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 1581 (837029)
07-25-2018 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by Phat
07-25-2018 12:28 PM


Re: Open Theism Allows For A Better Communion
NoNukes writes:

Having the power to pre-determine everything does not mean that it would be best to use such power. Reasoned restraint is not weakness.

Phat writes:

The Open Theism argument is compelling to me...especially in light of other current discussion with jar regarding imagining a "Living" and active God versus a stagnant and dated character in a book.

I wouldn't go so far as the Open Theism argument. I don't see the need to apply any limits to what God can do. But God appears to choose to allow humans to determine at least their earthly destiny and does not appear to pre-determine every flutter of a butterflies wing.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 12:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 585 of 1581 (837038)
07-25-2018 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by Phat
07-25-2018 8:28 AM


Re: Some sources
Phat writes:

But the reality is that only by our thinking/imagining can we even be able to approach the GOD Who is.

Yes, that should give you pause for thought. Why is it that it is only by imagining that you can “approach the god who is” (As if that means anything at all.)

Do you have any better suggestions for believers...apart from your rant against superstition and appeal to logic?

No. I think you're all deluded and looking for impossible and improbable answers to your own problems.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 8:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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