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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1483
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 541 of 719 (836939)
07-24-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:54 PM


Re: Some sources
Exactly. This is why I reject Calvinism. It is contradictory and the premises flip flop back and forth depending on the specific subject. I know you don't see it that way, but if it is basically impossible to describe and to "keep track of the content" maybe the truth of it should be questioned.

For example, "But the fact that God is totally in charge of everything really does not affect what we do at all." - if things can happen apart from God's will, then he really is not in charge of it.

and "In some sense everything we do is "in God's will" anyway. But if anyone wants to be saved nothing is preventing it," - except for "God's will" which is either preventing it or encouraging it.

The idea of election and predestination are really meant to be reassurances to those who have been walking with God for a long time.

I don't think so. We have individualized those passages, which is something the West highly favors - individuality. Try reading those passages and think of them in terms other than referencing individuals, but instead groups (such as The Church) or ideals (such believers were created to do good works).

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 1:29 PM herebedragons has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5973
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 542 of 719 (836941)
07-24-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Faith
07-24-2018 12:54 PM


Re: Some sources
Faith writes:

This is why I wish we could just not talk aboujt Calvinism, it is too hard to explain it.

There's a reason for that Faith, it's self-contradictory. You can't explain it or understand it because it's quite literally inexpliccable. Or, if you prefer, religous sounding gibberish.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 12:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 543 of 719 (836942)
07-24-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by herebedragons
07-24-2018 1:19 PM


Re: Some sources
For example, "But the fact that God is totally in charge of everything really does not affect what we do at all." - if things can happen apart from God's will, then he really is not in charge of it.

But that is not a logical conclusion. Nothing happens apart from God's will. Everything we do is in some sense in God's will all the time. It's a matter of perspective. From our point of view we can't know God's will and trying to second guess God just gets us confused. Nobody knows beforehand who is predestined for salvation, that's why we give the gospel to all.

the problem with rejecting God's sovereignty in salvation is that you make human will stronger than God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by herebedragons, posted 07-24-2018 1:19 PM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by herebedragons, posted 07-24-2018 1:53 PM Faith has responded
 Message 560 by Stile, posted 07-25-2018 11:53 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10982
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 544 of 719 (836943)
07-24-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by jar
07-15-2018 4:12 PM


Wandering around asking Why and How?
jar writes:

How does a supernatural creature exist in this current realm and how could anyone tell?

Some would argue that once a person believes, they experience a "get saved" moment which lasts. I certainly did and so did Faith. Are you suggesting we were merely brainwashed into a conformational bias? (I would defend the change I experienced though acknowledging that it is far from complete)

jar writes:

You suggest others should strive for some communion with Jesus.

How?

Just drink the kool-aid already and quit demanding a chemical analysis of its contents! sheesh! (kidding... )
jar writes:

It's the GOD Calvin markets that is evil, vile and despicable as well as the theology. Calvinism is without a doubt the the most vile religion worshiping the most vile God ever marketed by man.

Once you have drank the kool-aid we can all become as one and market a God together rather than you continuing to be a stick-in-the-mud and suggesting that the Emperor is not really wearing anything!
jar writes:

Back to Matt 25 and the sheep & goats.

Both get surprised; those that claimed "When have we not done for you?" as well as those who asked "What the hell have I ever done for you?".

Which is fine as long as you quit arguing that the source is unimportant. (yes, ringo...message vs messenger!)

Phat writes:

Yet if I "threw Him away" what would we even talk about except your infamous charge to go feed the hungry and not worry about a correct religion


jar writes:

Would that be so bad?

I'm not feeling it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by jar, posted 07-15-2018 4:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by ringo, posted 07-24-2018 1:48 PM Phat has responded
 Message 550 by jar, posted 07-24-2018 5:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 545 of 719 (836944)
07-24-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Phat
07-24-2018 1:31 PM


Re: Wandering around asking Why and How?
Phat writes:

I would defend the change I experienced though acknowledging that it is far from complete


But you don't defend it. All you ever say is, "I believe." That's not a defense. You might as well defend your country by standing still and letting your enemies shoot at you.

If there really was a change, why would it not be visible to people around you? Why would a change that is only noticeable to you not be just in your own mind? You can't just hand-wave away the concept of evidence forever. In all honesty, don't you eventually have to concede that the evidence is right and your belief is wrong?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Phat, posted 07-24-2018 1:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 07-24-2018 4:26 PM ringo has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1483
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 546 of 719 (836945)
07-24-2018 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Faith
07-24-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Some sources
Nothing happens apart from God's will.

But God does not will that anyone should perish, yet... The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that he does will that some (in fact most people that ever lived) should perish.

Everything we do is in some sense in God's will all the time.

Then why do you consider me to not be a "True Christian" since I am doing God's will by accepting evolution and an old earth? Is it God's will that I be a "false Christian?" Or is my will to accept these things stronger than God's will for me to believe his word? Or am I right? The answer to one of these is "Yes." which is it (in your opinion)?

The contradictions of Calvinism just cannot be reconciled. To do so is simply double-talk.

the problem with rejecting God's sovereignty in salvation is that you make human will stronger than God.

God has constrained his sovereignty to not over step human will. A king can be the sovereign and still allow his subjects freedom to do as they will. Bu some day he will call his subjects to account. See Matthew 25:14-30.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 1:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 10:27 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14232
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 547 of 719 (836946)
07-24-2018 4:11 PM


Revelation
We’ve seen that Daniel placed the End Times in the 2nd Century BC and the Synoptic Gospels in the 1st Century AD. Now for the biggy.

The Revelation is framed as a vision, but I won’t be dealing much with that element focussing on the things which clearly deal with the End Times.

Chapter 1 tells us that the end is coming. It clearly states that those who “pierced” Jesus will see his return. The obvious reading is that this refers to the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus, again pointing to a date in the 1st Century AD.

Chapters 2-3 are messages to seven Churches, telling them what to do, and implying or directly stating (3:11) that Jesus will soon return.

Chapters 4-5 do not say anything of direct relevance to this topic.


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10982
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 548 of 719 (836947)
07-24-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by ringo
07-24-2018 1:48 PM


Re: Wandering around asking Why and How?
Phat writes:

I would defend the change I experienced though acknowledging that it is far from complete

There most definitely was a change. It was not merely internal...it manifested externally through attitude, bahavior, and works.
If there really was a change, why would it not be visible to people around you?
It was, at least according to them. Not all of them were themselves believers either.
You can't just hand-wave away the concept of evidence forever.
I don't...but If evidence were Gods method, would not people be virtually forced to believe?
In all honesty, don't you eventually have to concede that the evidence is right and your belief is wrong?
Only if evidence quenches belief. In my opinion they are not mutually exclusive. A lot also depends on how open a person is to new experience. https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind

Many of you who rejected religion did not decide simply on lack of evidence for God.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by ringo, posted 07-24-2018 1:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by ringo, posted 07-24-2018 4:40 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 549 of 719 (836949)
07-24-2018 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
07-24-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Wandering around asking Why and How?
Phat writes:

... If evidence were Gods method, would not people be virtually forced to believe?


Evidence is our method - the human method. It's what frees us from belief.

Phat writes:

Only if evidence quenches belief.


It does.

Phat writes:

In my opinion they are not mutually exclusive. A lot also depends on how open a person is to new experience.


If there is evidence, there is no excuse for belief. So I would say that they are mutually exclusive.

Phat writes:

Many of you who rejected religion did not decide simply on lack of evidence for God.


It's true that if I thought your God was real I would still reject Him. He's no more appealing than a sharp stick in the eye. I don't know why you assume that believing in His existence would automatically lead to acceptance.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 07-24-2018 4:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30717
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 550 of 719 (836951)
07-24-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Phat
07-24-2018 1:31 PM


Re: Wandering around asking Why and How?
Phat writes:

jar writes:

How does a supernatural creature exist in this current realm and how could anyone tell?

Some would argue that once a person believes, they experience a "get saved" moment which lasts. I certainly did and so did Faith. Are you suggesting we were merely brainwashed into a conformational bias? (I would defend the change I experienced though acknowledging that it is far from complete)

But what changed Phat? You have said many times your behavior did not change.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

You suggest others should strive for some communion with Jesus.

How?

Just drink the kool-aid already and quit demanding a chemical analysis of its contents! sheesh! (kidding... )

But are you kidding? Isn't that exactly what happens?

Phat writes:

jar writes:

It's the GOD Calvin markets that is evil, vile and despicable as well as the theology. Calvinism is without a doubt the the most vile religion worshiping the most vile God ever marketed by man.

Once you have drank the kool-aid we can all become as one and market a God together rather than you continuing to be a stick-in-the-mud and suggesting that the Emperor is not really wearing anything!

But once again, you misrepresent what I say.

I only say that in the stories the Emperor is wearing what the stories say the Emperor is wearing but I have no idea what the Emperor is wearing outside the stories.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

Back to Matt 25 and the sheep & goats.

Both get surprised; those that claimed "When have we not done for you?" as well as those who asked "What the hell have I ever done for you?".

Which is fine as long as you quit arguing that the source is unimportant. (yes, ringo...message vs messenger!)

But why is the source important? The Sheep did nothing for Jesus.

Phat writes:

Yet if I "threw Him away" what would we even talk about except your infamous charge to go feed the hungry and not worry about a correct religion

jar writes:

Would that be so bad?

I'm not feeling it.

So once again, the theology needs to be what you want it to be; what you create.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Phat, posted 07-24-2018 1:31 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 551 of 719 (836958)
07-24-2018 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by herebedragons
07-24-2018 1:53 PM


Re: Some sources
God's will probably not the right way to say it since it does imply He's in favor of what He will,s but I don't mean it that way. All I mean is that we can't escape God, everything we do is done in His power/will/whatever because nothing exists without Him. A butterfly happened to fly into my room: that's God's will. I dropped the bowl of potato salad. That's God's will. Aha, maybe the better term is "providence." Theologicans talk of "frowning providences" as well as blessings. I don't know but the point is just that we always feel free to do whatever we do in spite of the fact that because God is God we can only do it all in some sense in His will or providence or power or whatever the right term is. Like that Greek poet Paul quoted to the Athenians (Epimenides?) describing the "unknown God" as the "God in whom we live and move and have our being."

So in this simple sense it is meaningless to talk about our actions being "futile" because God has preordained some people to salvation. Again, anyone who really desires salvation can have it because the desire itself is God given.

I'm not sure what the parable of the talents is meant to illustrate. There isn't a contradiction between God's sovereignty and our will in this sense, so God can't overstep" human will in any case, so that it isn't right to say He restrains it.

AQnyway I just wanted to say that in the ordinary experience we have of our own free will, which isn't really what Calvinism is talking about anyway, we don't experience any restraint or conflict, it's as if He isn't there as far as our own perception goes, although He is in fact in everything we do. He can't NOT be.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by herebedragons, posted 07-24-2018 1:53 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Tangle, posted 07-25-2018 4:22 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 553 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 8:28 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 568 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2018 12:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5973
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 552 of 719 (836959)
07-25-2018 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by Faith
07-24-2018 10:27 PM


Re: Some sources
What a load of superstitious, primitive nonsense. Thank god this sort of magical, desperate thinking is in decline.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 10:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 8:28 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30717
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 553 of 719 (836964)
07-25-2018 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by Faith
07-24-2018 10:27 PM


the absudity of "whatever happens is God's will."
Of course the Bible directly contradicts the point of view that whatever happens is God's will. That position can only be supported by taking a few passages out of context, by "Proof Texts". It just makes God look stupid and evil.

If everything happens by God's will why was it necessary for God to go Walkabout to find out what was happening in Babel; why was the Flood necessary, why did Eve eat the apple...?

Sorry but that is just another example of humans creating a God to fit the dogma of their Cult.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 07-24-2018 10:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10982
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 554 of 719 (836965)
07-25-2018 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Tangle
07-25-2018 4:22 AM


Re: Some sources
But the reality is that only by our thinking/imagining can we even be able to approach the GOD Who is. Do you have any better suggestions for believers...apart from your rant against superstition and appeal to logic?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Tangle, posted 07-25-2018 4:22 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by jar, posted 07-25-2018 8:30 AM Phat has responded
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 07-25-2018 12:09 PM Phat has responded
 Message 585 by Tangle, posted 07-25-2018 5:51 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30717
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 555 of 719 (836966)
07-25-2018 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by Phat
07-25-2018 8:28 AM


Re: Some sources
Maybe actually look at the source material?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 8:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by Phat, posted 07-25-2018 8:49 AM jar has responded

  
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