Christianity and the End Times

Despite the bible saying very plainly that it was to happen in the life of those there listening. Insisting that it didn’t happen at all is simple reality.

Yes, my mistake, he thinks it didn't happen at all.

And they're always wrong. Don't forget that point.Jesus Himself said that nobody knows the day. Yet you feel free to overrule Him.

Out of my intended sequence, but:1 Thessalonians 4 So what it says is that Jesus will return, the dead Christians will rise and then the living and risen Christians will be taken up into the sky. It also indicates that Paul expects to be one of the living.So, obviously following the Second Coming and expected in the latter part of the 1st Century AD, or very shortly after.

And so do you.

You quoted this:

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1Thess 4:17 writes:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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..and then said this. When you read that, with a 21st century understanding and a pre-conceived doctrine, (not to mention a single verse taken out of context), you would see it that way.
This letter is being written to the Thessalonians as a letter of encouragement. He tells them in one section that they are sons of light and sons of day and that they are not of light or darkness. The verse you quote is a part of the section that is meant to qualm the fears about loved ones who have died ahead of Christ’s return. The language that he uses, especially in verse 17 is typical of much early Jewish expression using colourful language and hyperbole to make the point. The idea that he is talking about physical clouds is simply an add on by people centuries later in totally different cultures.
Once again as I have pointed out before the language of clouds goes back to the Exodus story including God leading them in a pillar of cloud, as well as other examples of God such as this verse from Exodus 19:

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9 The LORD said to Moses, I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.

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The cloud is not meant to be a physical cloud but simply about the presence of God, as is made clearer in the last part of the quoted verse from Thessalonians. As far as meeting the Lord in the air is concerned this goes back to both the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades. Both referred to a kind of underworld for the dead. If those separated from God were in an underworld then the language that is used for those that go to the Lord would obviously be in the other direction as we see here...and about your sense of immanence
Just a couple of thoughts on that. You live in a situation with food, shelter and freedom. Do you think that others over the centuries who have been tortured for their faith, others who have been in POW camps, living through the great plague etc. didn’t think that this would be a good time to wrap things up? It seems to me that as Christians we should pray that this world goes on for millions of years. The longer this world goes on the more people there will be that get to have life and have the opportunity to know and serve the Lord. Why would we hope and pray for the end of this world to come and see them denied that opportunity. It seems to me that to pray for God to close this down sooner rather than later is a pretty self centred POV.
Also, in understanding the scriptures we can look at the whole idea in another light. Just maybe Jesus comes to us, as and when, we as individuals die. That may well be the second coming and would be consistent with the scriptures and more consistent with the belief that in the next life we will be in a world that is eternal, and as a result a world that experiences change,(time) differently than we currently experience.Sometimes in my church we use a modern creed that has what I consider a great line. "So complex so simple, so clear so mysterious, our God ever three yet eternally one."

I understand. I feel closer to God too lately...but I'm in no hurry to leave this place. Perhaps if I had a chronic medical condition or was broke or was being tortured or persecuted I would desire to be with God physically a lot quicker.Perhaps he is simply preparing us for the reality that being with Him eternally...is serious business.For those who do not believe or cannot believe, no such desire would exist apart from fantasy. You mentioned returning to your first love. I sincerely hope that you do.
jaywill certainly helps...you can feel his joy concerning spiritual matters....and he is patient and has so far not shown any human traits of blowing up or getting angry at being scoffed at and challenged.I often talk as if i am a skeptic myself, but that is my chosen way of expressing my honesty. I am most definitely a believer,but it is more challenging now than it was when I first got saved because I do not ignore arguments and proposals from unbelievers as you do. Some believe that entertaining such doctrines is harmful to the growth (and joy) of a believer, but for me, it is honest...though a hard path.

Yes it's been expected in every generation, but there is nothing in the prophecy itself to say which generation, just "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord."

And yet by saying we Paul tells us that he expects to be among the living when it occurs - and at least some of his readers, too. If he did not he would have written they.

"We who are alive" is pretty plain. He didn't say "they" who are alive 2000 years from now.

I read it as a real cloud and figure it was read that way in the first century too and all the time in between. Whenever I read early interpretations of scripture I don't find anything in them that is culturally different from our readings today. I suspect this is in fact a modern prejudice being imposed on the text.And nobody that I know of is praying FOR the world to end, certainly I am not. All of us are simply trying to understand prophecy that says it's going to end and gives signs that we can ponder about when and so on, so that we'll be ready for it. And I HAVE at times asked God to put it off, for the selfish reason that I don't feel ready for it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Fine, believe what you want. Everybody I know reads it as applying to whoever is alive at the time of His coming.

Ringo is quite right about what it says. Whether you think it is going to happen or not, Paul was wrong about when it would happen.

It isn't a question of believing. It's a question of what the text says. It doesn't say "they" who are alive at the time of His coming. It says "we" who are alive at they time of his coming. There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Paul was referring to the near future, not the distant future.Unfortunately, this is all too typical of fundamentalist Bible reading.

Right, we know how to read the Bible, you should learn from us. We read this kind of scripture as written directly to us as it is supposed to be read. But as I said, believe what you want.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.