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Author | Topic: Casualty of faith healing - Madeline Neumann | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Fox News
quote: Journal Sentinel
quote: Basically, if the parents could prove that they really believed they could have healed the child with faith healing they would get off for free because of of the faith healing law in Wisconsin.
The Daily Pagequote: Why the hell are christians allowed to abuse their children like this? I mean, am I missing something really obvious here? If you can prove that you really believe god would heal your kid, you can get away with child negligent and manslaughter? How the hell is this different than the honor killing laws in the middle east? This poor little girl literally got prayed to death. I swear, if christian organizations begin to offer prayer services for her, my head will explode from the irony. Edited by True Believer, : No reason given.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
It's called freedom of religion. Children die at the hospital as well due to mistakes and the imperfection of medicine.
It's a free country or at least partly that way. Let's keep it that way.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
randman writes:
This girl's life could have been saved by a single insulin shot. It seems to me like you're more interested in your religion than this girl's welfare.
It's called freedom of religion. Children die at the hospital as well due to mistakes and the imperfection of medicine. It's a free country or at least partly that way. Let's keep it that way.
Free country for christian parents to abuse their children like this?
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I am not saying what they did was right. What I am saying is that trying to use the law and the State to correct every problem and even protect a life is not always the right path in the long run.
Parents have ultimate responsibility for their children's care, and they will, just like doctors, sometimes make mistakes. Sure, if their parents believed differently, in this case, their child's life could have been saved and they will suffer the knowledge for the rest of their lives that they could have saved her by not being so uncompromising. We live in a soceity that respects to a degree at least, freedom, and one of those freedoms is religious freedom. To insist because someone died that we throw out religious freedom is wrong. Let's look at this from another angle....I am sure some religious people consider it child abuse to raise children in unbelief and not expose them to prayer, faith and worship of God. Would it be OK to prosecute unbelievers for their lack of faith? What if a child committed suicide or got on drugs (and yes I know that occurs with religious families as well) but for sake of argument, religious people stated, hey, that child could easily have been saved if they knew God loved them and had a plan for their life, but their parents did bad....they didn't teach them what could have saved them and their materialist teaching led the child to despair. Sorry, but we need to give parents the freedom to make their best decisions and that will mean there will sometimes be terrible lapses in judgement. Edited by randman, : No reason given. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
randman writes:
What religious freedom? The religious freedom to murder your children in the name of god? I can't believe what I'm seeing.
To insist because someone died that we throw out religious freedom is wrong. Parents have ultimate responsibility for their children's care, and they will, just like doctors, sometimes make mistakes.
What the hell are you talking about? These people had an entire month to get their daughter the help she needed. Mistake?
I am not saying what they did was right. What I am saying is that trying to use the law and the State to correct every problem and even protect a life is not always the right path in the long run.
What the hell are you talking about? It's you christians that have used the law to sanctify child abuse.
Let's look at this from another angle....I am sure some religious people consider it child abuse to raise children in unbelief and not expose them to prayer, faith and worship of God.
Nobody is suggesting we ban prayer. Read those fucking articles again, randman. There's a law in place that says parents can maim or murder their children without being prosecuted by the law if they can prove they truly had faith. You're arguing a strawman.
What if a child committed suicide or got on drugs (and yes I know that occurs with religious families as well) but for sake of argument, religious people stated, hey, that child could easily have been saved if they knew God loved them and had a plan for their life, but their parents did bad....they didn't teach them what could have saved them and their materialist teaching led the child to despair.
Again, what the hell are you talking about? Nobody is suggesting we ban prayers. Read the fucking articles. Basically, christians are shielded from the law regarding child abuse simply because of their faith.
Sorry, but we need to give parents the freedom to make their best decisions and that will mean there will sometimes be terrible lapses in judgement.
Oh, really? Do you support honor killing also? How about female circumcision? What about selling your children into slavery? You are proving my point for years now that it's always the christians that support legalized child abuse. Edited by True Believer, : No reason given.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
What religious freedom? The religious freedom to murder your children in the name of god? I can't believe what I'm seeing. No one murdered anyone here. The parents believed prayer and faith were the best medicine. You believe medical science was. In this case, medical science may well have been, but at the same time, people die due to medical science all the time. That's a fact whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.
What the hell are you talking about? These people had an entire month to get their daughter the help she needed. Mistake? If a parent takes a child to a hospital and the child dies due to medical mistakes, are you going to say the parents murdered the child? Bottom line is you are insisting your worldview is the right one and want to impose that on others. In this case, the parent's worldview and faith led to the death of their child, which is tragic, but they have a right to hold those beliefs just as you do your's. You are outraged they didn't do the right thing, but at the same time, you wouldn't show any outrage at parents whose child died getting routine surgery died due to some complication. In fact, you'd think it was the doctor's fault or just bad luck, but it was the parents that put the child at risk in the first place. You need to realize that freedom of religion and freedom in general is important. On honor killings or abortion (legal murder), no, those are clear acts of aggression that should not be tolerated. There's a difference. Edited by randman, : No reason given.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
You are proving my point for years now that it's always the christians that support legalized child abuse. Hmmm.....you sure about that? How many Christians advocate it's OK to kill a baby growing peacefully in the womb?
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
randman writes:
I don't deny it. Do you or do you not deny that this girl simply needed an insulin shot or two? You are dancing around this quite a lot. In this case, medical science may well have been, but at the same time, people die due to medical science all the time. That's a fact whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. Nobody has ever claimed that medical science is perfect. It's you christians that claim faith healing that's perfect.
If a parent takes a child to a hospital and the child dies due to medical mistakes, are you going to say the parents murdered the child?
At least they gave the child a fighting chance. That's better than watching their child die a slow and painful death that took a month. If it was my child and I was a christian, I would have tried everything to save my child, and that includes both prayer and medical science.
Bottom line is you are insisting your worldview is the right one and want to impose that on others.
Um, no. Randman, shut up for a second and think about it. The current law states that you can maim or murder your child in the name of faith and the law can't do anything to you. The same cannot be said of atheistic views. Basically, you're advocating we allow christian parents to do whatever the hell they want with their children even if it means costing their children their lives. All I'm saying is this law is out of place in a modern society. If people can watch their children die slowly and painfully over the course of a month, they don't deserve to be parents. But then of course you don't really care for these children do you? All you care about is pleasing your god so you could go to heaven.
You are outraged they didn't do the right thing, but at the same time, you wouldn't show any outrage at parents whose child died getting routine surgery died due to some complication.
Look, you're making a strawman argument. Until someone can repeatedly prove that miracles work or faith healing works, why the hell are you putting faith healing on the same grounds as medical science? There are 20-40 million people in this country without health care. Please, do us all a favor and stop seeing doctors. Since you don't believe in medical science anyway. You should really step back and let other, more deserving people in line.
You need to realize that freedom of religion and freedom in general is important.
But shielding abusive parents from prosecution because they're christian? If I decide that my kid doesn't need a doctor and then she dies, I will face the full force of the law. But christians get a free ticket because of the faith healing statute. This is not an issue of freedom of religion. This is an issue of child abuse in the name of religion.
On honor killings or abortion (legal murder), no, those are clear acts of aggression that should not be tolerated. There's a difference.
And refusing your kid medical help and let her die a very slow and painful death over a whole month not an act of aggression? What the hell happened to your superior christian morals?
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
randman writes:
Apparently, all of you christians do since you advocate such a law that shield christian parents from responsibility of child abuse. How many Christians advocate it's OK to kill a baby growing peacefully in the womb? Oh, by the way, I've been pro-life for a while now. I somehow get the impression that you're not pro-life at all. Being pro-life is more than just having a loud mouth about it. It means you care for the kids from the bottom of your heart. Apparently, you seem to care for christian dogma more than the kids.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
TB, it's not Christian dogma. It's a matter of freedom. In fact, most Christians would take their kid to the doctor in such a situation.
What you don't seem to realize is that if you want the freedom to not go to church or a specific church, you also need to grant others the freedom to not go to the doctor or go to doctor they choose and treat illnesses according to their own beliefs.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
If it was my child and I was a christian, I would have tried everything to save my child, and that includes both prayer and medical science.
As would 99.999% of Christians and people of other faiths. So what?
why the hell are you putting faith healing on the same grounds as medical science? Because it's a matter of religion and under our Constitution, religious freedom is guaranteed.
And refusing your kid medical help and let her die a very slow and painful death over a whole month not an act of aggression? No, it's not. But I am not surprised by your lack of tolerance. It's very typical. The simple fact is their motive was to save their child's life. It was not murder. It was an error in judgement imo, but it was an error religiously motivated and as such, it is not something they should be prosecuted for. People have a right to follow their own religion even if that entails some risks, including the risk of death due to avoiding medicine.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2670 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
As would 99.999% of Christians and people of other faiths. So what? Mmm. Well, TB. 99.999 is a lot, but there are a lotta xian scientists. Almost half a million. That's a lotta kids.
wiki writes: The Journal of the American Medical Association (22 September 1989) reported on a study of more than 5,500 "Christian Scientists" as compared to a "lay group" of almost 30,000. The death rate among "Christian Scientists" from cancer was double the national average, and 6 percent of them died from causes considered preventable by doctors. That's 24,000 preventable deaths/year. And they're not the only xian wingnuts who rely solely on prayer. And thanks to the xian scientists' "good" work ...
wiki writes: There are now statutes in 44 states which contain a provision stating that a child is not to be deemed abused or neglected merely because he or she is receiving treatment by spiritual means, through prayer according to the tenets of a recognized religion. 44/50. Yup. That's a lot of dead kids.
Christian Science children have died and continue to die of diabetes, ruptured appendixes, measles, diphtheria, blood poisoning, cancer, and other illnesses that are curable or treatable with modern medicine. Two Christian Science parents, David and Ginger Twitchell, of Hyde Park, a section of Boston, were scheduled to go on trial shortly for involuntary manslaughter in the 1986 death of their two-year-old son, Robyn. (He died of an intestinal blockage that could have been surgically corrected.) Andrew weighed only about 105 pounds at his death and was severely emaciated. The Orange County coroner's report listed three causes of death and their duration: A. Multiple system failure/daysB. Diabetic ketoacidosis/months C. Diabetes mellitus/months In other words, Andrew Wantland died of diabetes after months of illness. Ashley King died in 1988. She was twelve years old, and she had bone cancer ... the tumor on her right leg that was forty-one inches in circumference (the size of a watermelon) ... Her heart was enlarged from the burden of pumping blood to the tumor, her pulse was twice normal, the cancer had spread to her lungs, and she was in immediate danger of dying from congestive heart failure. Immobilized by the tumor, she had been lying in the same position for months. Her buttocks and genitals were covered with bedsores ... Ashley would have had a 55 to 60 percent chance of recovery if she had had timely, proper medical treatment ... She died on June 5, 1988 (after one and a half years of untreated, unbearable suffering). (Spaulding Gray was raised as a Xian Scientist) "So one day I was in the bathtub taking a very hot bath. It was a cold day and the radiator was going full blast. I got out of the tub. . . . I hit my head on the sink. . . . When I landed my arm fell against the radiator. I must have been out quite a long time because when I came to, I lifted my arm up and it was like this dripping-rare red roast beef, third-degree burn. Actually it didn't hurt at all because I was in shock, a steam burn on my finger would have hurt more. I ran downstairs and showed it to my mother and she said, "Put some soap in it, dear, and wrap it in gauze." She was a Christian Scientist, so she had a distance on those things. "The next day when I got to school, the burn began to drip through the gauze. I went down to the infirmary, and when the nurse saw it she screamed, "What, you haven't been to a doctor with this? That's a third-degree burn. You've got to get to a doctor right away." I am certain it was that same complacency that killed a child I knew, Michael Schram, whose appendix burst when he was twelve. His mother, Betty, whom I remember as a very kind, quiet woman, patient with children, sat calmly on their couch with him the night he died and, apparently just as calmly, sat beside his dead body for two and a half days, praying, she later told the local paper, with "the idea of rousing him." H. R. Haldeman's son Peter wrote recently in The New York Times Magazine about his father's death, in 1993, of an undiagnosed, untreated stomach ailment. Rita Swan was a Christian Scientist until she left the Church, in 1977, after her sixteen-month-old son, Matthew, died of bacterial meningitis under Christian Science treatment. She and her husband prayed over their son for days, employing two successive Christian Science practitioners; she listened to the baby screaming and watched him convulsing for hours before he died. ... thirteen-year-old Kris Ann Lewin, who in 1981 died at home of bone cancer after an illness lasting at least a year. ... two Christian Scientists who had allowed their seven-year-old daughter to die of diabetes after a long, wasting illness ... In 1993 Douglass Lundman's ex-wife ... (allowed) his eleven-year-old son, Ian, to die of diabetes in 1989. He had been ill for four days--losing 35 percent of his body weight--and had been vomiting and urinating uncontrollably before falling into the coma. A fourth-generation Christian Scientist, Shepard has seen many members of her family die prematurely and terribly. Her mother died at age fifty of untreated cervical cancer; her stepmother died of a melanoma on her chest which metastasized; her grandfather developed a melanoma on his cheek which ate completely through the flesh. As a teenager, she was paralyzed for several weeks after fracturing two vertebrae in her neck; her right side is still affected because she didn't go to a doctor until years after the injury. The parents of a six-year-old girl called to ask her to pray for the child because she had fallen and bruised her arm. The girl herself later called Shepard, crying uncontrollably. Shepard drove to her home and found her alone, lying on the floor with a protruding broken collarbone. On another occasion a mother called and described her child as having a sore throat. Three days later Shepard visited the child and found that he had swallowed lye and had a hole in his throat. Suffering Children and the Christian Science Church - 95.04 You know what? I think I see randman's point, TB. Compound fractures, watermelon sized tumors, comas, convulsions, third degree burns, bacterial meningitis. It's all good. Edited by molbiogirl, : sp
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obvious Child Member (Idle past 4144 days) Posts: 661 Joined: |
Let's look at this in the long run. This may sound crude but natural selection will ensure that people who believe such nonsense as these two parents will not be passing down their inferior genes and inferior ideals. Eventually those people who believe such garbage will die out. Those with common sense will react differently and change their beliefs to favor actual science and medicine over a hokey religious belief (credits of course to Mr. Solo). In the end many kids will pay the price but won't society be better off?
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FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
randman writes: But these doctors can (and often times, are) held responsible for their actions. They can be sued and/or they can be prosecuted.
In this case, medical science may well have been, but at the same time, people die due to medical science all the time. That's a fact whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. randman writes: Ummmm, that would be "No". But what the fuck does that have to do with this case?
If a parent takes a child to a hospital and the child dies due to medical mistakes, are you going to say the parents murdered the child? randman writes: So, as True Believer has been suggesting...you do think it's OK to murder your child in the name of religion. Well, to be more specific...it's OK for Christians to kill their kids. How very very sad. You're a sick twisted individual, randman.
Bottom line is you are insisting your worldview is the right one and want to impose that on others. In this case, the parent's worldview and faith led to the death of their child, which is tragic, but they have a right to hold those beliefs just as you do your's. randman writes: Yes, religious people must not have the right to kill their children infringed upon. I'm curious as to how you would feel if this were a Muslim family that allowed their child to die. Somehow, I seriously doubt that you'd be defending their actions.
You need to realize that freedom of religion and freedom in general is important. randman writes: I refuse to believe that you're serious. You MUST be saying this crap just to get a rise out of people. No one can be this utterly hypocritical.
On honor killings or abortion (legal murder), no, those are clear acts of aggression that should not be tolerated. There's a difference.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2670 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
In the end many kids will pay the price but won't society be better off? Teensy problem with that line of reasoning, OC. These sorta xians tend to drop a lotta crotchfruit. Kinda negates any evolutionary impact.
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