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Author Topic:   What’s YEC explanation for the emergence of races?
Aryeh Shavit
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 47 (27832)
12-25-2002 9:39 AM


I wonder how the YEC scientists explain the existence of human races. Specifically:

1) How did the descendants of Adam and Eve become so racially different during just a few thousands of years?

2) Why do the different races live in different geographical zones and how did they manage to arrive there. For example how did the Australian aborigines arrive to Australia?

Thanks in advance,
Aryeh.


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by peter borger, posted 12-26-2002 7:39 PM Aryeh Shavit has responded
 Message 17 by Peter, posted 01-08-2003 5:46 AM Aryeh Shavit has not yet responded
 Message 33 by ddmcneill, posted 01-22-2003 1:32 PM Aryeh Shavit has not yet responded
 Message 37 by Jesuslover153, posted 03-12-2003 1:07 PM Aryeh Shavit has not yet responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 47 (27840)
12-25-2002 2:25 PM


One word, ‘babble’
Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-26-2002 3:10 AM Gzus has not yet responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 47 (27875)
12-25-2002 11:43 PM


I thought it was Babel.....
  
Aryeh Shavit
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 47 (27879)
12-26-2002 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Gzus
12-25-2002 2:25 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
One word, ‘babble’

Are you saying that at Babel people not only started to speak different languages but also changed their physical appearance? Does Bible talk about it?

How did then all the Australian aborigines manage to migrate to Australia?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:25 PM Gzus has not yet responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 47 (27888)
12-26-2002 8:34 AM


Buggered if I know, I still haven`t heard a decent explanation for it....

Oh and maybe humans were caught up in that bout of "hyperspeciation" after the flood, that sounds about ad hoc enough to make it into the YEC lexicon although as humans were involved it would have to become "hypervariation" (can't have humans speciating, it implys they evolve)....


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-26-2002 11:24 AM joz has responded

  
Aryeh Shavit
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 47 (27910)
12-26-2002 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by joz
12-26-2002 8:34 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:

Oh and maybe humans were caught up in that bout of "hyperspeciation" after the flood, that sounds about ad hoc enough to make it into the YEC lexicon although as humans were involved it would have to become "hypervariation" (can't have humans speciating, it implys they evolve)....

Hmmm… Interesting.

One of the YEC explanations about the results of radiometry is that during the Flood the nuclear reactions were in millions time more intensive, which caused the accelerated decay of the radioactive materials and thus created the appearance (misleading of course) of the billion years old Earth. It remains unclear what a role the intensive nuclear reactions were supposed to play in the Flood.

However if the nuclear reactions were indeed that intense during the Flood year, the radioactivity would certainly affect Noah and his family and cause multiple mutations in their descendants. It could be seen as a hmmm… explanation for this "hypervariation" and the consecutive racial diversity (more likely of course it would just kill Noah and his family and all the animals).

However it steel remains unclear how those who had similar racial features managed to group together and settle in specific geographic regions.

[This message has been edited by Aryeh Shavit, 12-26-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 8:34 AM joz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by joz, posted 12-26-2002 11:45 AM Aryeh Shavit has not yet responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 47 (27911)
12-26-2002 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Aryeh Shavit
12-26-2002 11:24 AM


most likely it would give off so much heat that it wouldn't be a flood as all the water would vapourize and turn the earth into the worlds largest pressure cooker.....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-26-2002 11:24 AM Aryeh Shavit has not yet responded

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5648 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 8 of 47 (27942)
12-26-2002 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aryeh Shavit
12-25-2002 9:39 AM


dear all,
Ever heard of MPG, NRM and GUToB?

best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-25-2002 9:39 AM Aryeh Shavit has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-27-2002 5:29 PM peter borger has responded
 Message 16 by derwood, posted 01-04-2003 9:50 PM peter borger has not yet responded

    
Aryeh Shavit
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 47 (27994)
12-27-2002 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by peter borger
12-26-2002 7:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by peter borger:
dear all,
Ever heard of MPG, NRM and GUToB?

best wishes,
Peter


No, never. Would you explain shortly?

Even better wishes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by peter borger, posted 12-26-2002 7:39 PM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by peter borger, posted 12-27-2002 9:51 PM Aryeh Shavit has responded

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 47 (28000)
12-27-2002 6:26 PM


In the bible it says that the people were geographically dispersed after Babel. A Christian will find it easy to use this to explain the emergence of races.
  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5648 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 11 of 47 (28008)
12-27-2002 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Aryeh Shavit
12-27-2002 5:29 PM


Dear Aryen,

GUToB = grand unifying theory of biology. It holds that organism are able to adapt through a plastic multipurpose genome (MPG) by means of non-random mutations (NRM). Although random mutations are acknowledged they do not play a major role in 'evolution'.
Races are easy to explain with the GUToB. A recent example of the MPG in action and resulting in a distinct race of wallibies (even nominated as distinct species) is the intruiging history of the Brush-tailed Rock Wallaby on Hawai.

For more information on the MPG: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=120&p=2 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=120&p=2">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=120&p=2

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-27-2002 5:29 PM Aryeh Shavit has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-28-2002 3:46 PM peter borger has responded
 Message 38 by William E. Harris, posted 03-13-2003 12:37 AM peter borger has not yet responded

    
Aryeh Shavit
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 47 (28035)
12-28-2002 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by peter borger
12-27-2002 9:51 PM


Dear Peter,

quote:
Originally posted by peter borger:
Dear Aryen,

GUToB = grand unifying theory of biology. It holds that organism are able to adapt through a plastic multipurpose genome (MPG) by means of non-random mutations (NRM). Although random mutations are acknowledged they do not play a major role in 'evolution'.
Races are easy to explain with the GUToB. A recent example of the MPG in action and resulting in a distinct race of wallibies (even nominated as distinct species) is the intruiging history of the Brush-tailed Rock Wallaby on Hawai.

For more information on the MPG: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=120&p=2 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=120&p=2">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=120&p=2

Best wishes,
Peter


Hmmm… I don’t understand how it is related to the YEC case.

1) Does this new biological hypothesis suggest that significant racial changes can happen within a few thousands of years?
2) Is there any evidence it indeed so happened? This is to say all the races emerged (evolved) from some initial race of Adam and Eve (or may be Noah and his family).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by peter borger, posted 12-27-2002 9:51 PM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by peter borger, posted 01-01-2003 3:52 AM Aryeh Shavit has responded

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5648 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 13 of 47 (28237)
01-01-2003 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Aryeh Shavit
12-28-2002 3:46 PM


Dear Aryen,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by peter borger:
Dear Aryen,
GUToB = grand unifying theory of biology. It holds that organism are able to adapt through a plastic multipurpose genome (MPG) by means of non-random mutations (NRM). Although random mutations are acknowledged they do not play a major role in 'evolution'.
Races are easy to explain with the GUToB. A recent example of the MPG in action and resulting in a distinct race of wallibies (even nominated as distinct species) is the intruiging history of the Brush-tailed Rock Wallaby on Hawai. For more information on the MPG: http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=5&t=120&p=1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A: Hmmm… I don’t understand how it is related to the YEC case.

1) Does this new biological hypothesis suggest that significant racial changes can happen within a few thousands of years?

PB: In 1916, a single pair (!) of wallabies escaped from a zoo in Oahu. They survived and bred in the wild, and now there is a whole population. They are smaller (to 30%) and more lightly colored than the Aussie wallabies. They eat Hawaiian plants that are poisonous to the Aussie wallabies, because they evolved a new liver enzyme to detoxify them. They can no longer breed with the Australian wallabies, so they qualify as a new species. (http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/evobio/evc/wre_arch/wre00030.htm)

Apparently it took only a couple of generations to 'evolve' a novel species. Of course this has NOT been established by a random mechanism, but the new species --and in particular a novel enzyme-- has been created in the MPG. (Mechanism currently unknown, but probably directed germline mutations). All the necessities for surviving in a novel biotope were already present in the genome of the two founders. It is clearcut evidence of the MPG in action. My guess would be that all distinct wallabies we presently recognise as distinct species are derived from one original archetype, i.e. from one baramin.

2) Is there any evidence it indeed so happened? This is to say all the races emerged (evolved) from some initial race of Adam and Eve (or may be Noah and his family).

PB: It has been observed for Wallabies. If we are allowed to extrapolate these observations to propose an original human archetype, I do not see any objections why it cannot be applied to the original human MPG.
More compelling evidence should be found if we scrutinise characteristics and/or genome-make up in distinct subpopulations of man.

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 12-28-2002 3:46 PM Aryeh Shavit has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 01-01-2003 8:00 AM peter borger has responded

    
Aryeh Shavit
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 47 (28240)
01-01-2003 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by peter borger
01-01-2003 3:52 AM


Dear Peter,

I have an impression it is your own research, isn’t it? I wonder what its status is. Has it been reviewed by other biologists? Did they confirm your observations? If some of them don’t, what is the main argument against your evidence?

I would speculate that unless you understand the mechanism of the NRM you cannot conclude that it works for humans, can you.

Suppose however that the NRM has been observed, studied and the mechanism explained. I still will have doubts it took place with the humans in the past. If certain groups of humans suddenly underwent such mutations it would be remembered as the major events of their histories. They have legends telling: “once we were white and then suddenly became black” or “once we were black and then suddenly became Mongoloids”. It would be present in the legends and myths of all the peoples on the Earth.

Indeed, imagine a Viking tribe where women suddenly start giving birth to black children. Most likely the parents would simply kill the children, but even if not such an event would be most likely remembered forever.

However such legends and myths are not recorded.

[This message has been edited by Aryeh Shavit, 01-01-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by peter borger, posted 01-01-2003 3:52 AM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by peter borger, posted 01-01-2003 6:26 PM Aryeh Shavit has not yet responded

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5648 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 15 of 47 (28256)
01-01-2003 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Aryeh Shavit
01-01-2003 8:00 AM


Dear Aryeh,

A: I have an impression it is your own research, isn’t it? I wonder what its status is.

PB: It is based on a reanalysis of molecular biological data. The NDT cannot explain life as we know it, so it must be something else. Most likely, it is the NRM and MPG.

A: Has it been reviewed by other biologists? Did they confirm your observations? If some of them don’t, what is the main argument against your evidence?

PB: There is a lot of denial going on. I am not aware of any compelling arguments against the GUtoB.

A: I would speculate that unless you understand the mechanism of the NRM you cannot conclude that it works for humans, can you.

PB: The mechanisms are currently under investigation. See also Caporale's topic.

A: Suppose however that the NRM has been observed, studied and the mechanism explained. I still will have doubts it took place with the humans in the past. If certain groups of humans suddenly underwent such mutations it would be remembered as the major events of their histories. They have legends telling: “once we were white and then suddenly became black” or “once we were black and then suddenly became Mongoloids”. It would be present in the legends and myths of all the peoples on the Earth.
Indeed, imagine a Viking tribe where women suddenly start giving birth to black children. Most likely the parents would simply kill the children, but even if not such an event would be most likely remembered forever.
However such legends and myths are not recorded.

PB: Do you remember your grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-fathers colour? Besides, the DNA necessary for variation present in the original human MPG probably got lost --since such DNA is redundant, anyway-- over time and cannot be traced back in the genome.

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Aryeh Shavit, posted 01-01-2003 8:00 AM Aryeh Shavit has not yet responded

    
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