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Author Topic:   Smoking Bans
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 38 of 151 (505578)
04-13-2009 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by New Cat's Eye
04-13-2009 3:56 PM


Re: The law goes too far
In Oklahoma, you can smoke in the bars but you can't smoke in the restaurants. For facilities that sell both alcohol and food, if they sell more alcohol than food then you can smoke in them but if they sell more food than alcohol then you cannot smoke in them.
That's how it is here in Idaho as well. However, I get the feeling that the exemption for bars will end soon. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is in the know and there is an agenda to get rid of all exemptions for public places (a la Illinois) and this will soon extend to cars with minors, and then possibly to homes with minors. It's a desensitization programs, so to speak. Take away a little every couple of years instead of all at once.
Personally, I like to smoke when I go to the bars. At least in the summer you can go outside where there are no restrictions, not to mention the improved ambience. I fully agree with the arguments for the ban and I have no real argument against them. A worker's right to a healthy work environment should trump the priveleges of patrons. However, it just feels like a right is being taken away (even though it's not). I will get over it, but it does suck.

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 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-13-2009 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 40 of 151 (505580)
04-13-2009 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
04-13-2009 3:49 PM


Re: The law goes too far
And even if I found out that they are, I still have an issue with the way the law here is in Illinois that someone can't even open a bar that allows smoking if they want to.
Here's the problem. Once you have cited something as being a risk to an employee you can't make exceptions. If you did then you would be knowingly exposing employees to known health hazards. You can really open yourself up to lawsuits, or at least it would seem so.
As for smoking in public places, I bet there is a way. If you could create an air tight room where employees were not allowed to enter, and entrance was voluntary, then it might work. Also, if you formed a club that did not allow the public to enter without membership you might be able to work around it.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 59 of 151 (505701)
04-15-2009 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Rahvin
04-15-2009 4:04 PM


Re: The law goes too far
Why is it "too far," CS? Where is the boundary you set, and how does this law cross it? What is your reason for setting the boundary where you have set it?
For us barstool jockeys, a smokey bar is a bit nostalgic. It's a piece of Americana. Unhealthy? Absolutely. A risk to employee health? Very much so.
You are fighting the right fight, but you have to understand the cultural legacy as well. This isn't a situation where logic alone rules the day. There are a lot of emotions tied up in this too. For some, the ability to smoke in a bar is seen as a right (of sorts). Taking away that right, even though it is a very flimsy right and one that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, is symbolic of other rights. Can't smoke in a bar? What next? Will they take away my right to eat hamburgers next? You have to remember that these are emotional responses. It will take time for people to get over it.
As for banning smoking in private homes, that is going too far. You can't legistlate away stupid. If people are going to knowingly put their families at risk then they should be allowed to. We have to draw the line somewhere, and the doorway of our homes is a very good spot for that line. In this instance education is the key. We should foster communities where such behavior is looked down on. This is a place where people should police themselves.

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 Message 58 by Rahvin, posted 04-15-2009 4:04 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Rahvin, posted 04-15-2009 5:50 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 65 of 151 (505710)
04-15-2009 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rahvin
04-15-2009 5:50 PM


Re: The law goes too far
Emotional responses are irrelevant when countered by objective evidence and reasoned thinking. Whether a person "likes" it or not has nothing to do with whether the law is justified and withing the authority of the government.
In politics, the emotional response does matter. You can be right but be politically wrong.
Your line of reasoning is horrifically flawed. It is already illegal to perform a long list of activities on your own private property.
There is also a long list of things that one can do in private that one can not do in public. There are also constitutional rights given to people in their homes that are not given to people in public places. Smoking in the home does not impact anyone else outside the home. A meth lab does put others outside of the property at risk from the chemical hazards alone.
Your response is a gigantic red herring that fails utterly to address any single point regarding the restriction of smoking on private property. Instead, you've appealed to emotion, and then made an assertion without supporting it (the door of a home is a "very good spot" to draw the line according to you, but you neglected to say why).
The reason why is the same reason that the Bill of Rights has restrictions on search and seizure and the restrictions on quartering troops in one's home. Our homes have special protections under the Constitution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Rahvin, posted 04-15-2009 5:50 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 04-15-2009 6:10 PM Taq has replied
 Message 69 by Rahvin, posted 04-15-2009 6:29 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 67 of 151 (505712)
04-15-2009 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Straggler
04-15-2009 6:10 PM


Re: The law goes too far
But I am still unclear as to why you feel that that this distinction is justified with regard to this specific question?
Someone smoking in their house does not pose a health hazard (or any other risk) to their neighbors. Running an unregulated pharmaceutical laboratory (i.e. meth lab) does pose a risk to one's neighbors.
And yes, I do agree that this is a very hazy line (pardon the pun), and the slippery slope runs both ways. Do we also have police helicopters scouring the skys above suburbs looking for people cooking red meat due to known health risks posed by charred meat (not to mention the health risks of red meat itself)? Do we pull kids out of homes that are abusive? Both are ends of the same spectrum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 04-15-2009 6:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 79 of 151 (505764)
04-16-2009 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Rahvin
04-15-2009 6:29 PM


Re: The law goes too far
Smoking in the home does affect children who are present, sometimes with extreme results. You;re restricted from negligently harming a child - how does smoking, which has been shown to cause underdeveloped lungs, SIDS, and a whole host of other issues, any different?
A fatty diet has been shown to cause type II diabetes and other health problems as well. Should we have police entering people's homes to raid their refridgerator? I completely agree that smoking poses a health risk, but at some point we need to let parents be parents even if that means letting them make mistakes.
But not blanket protection. Reasonable search and seizure is still allowed.
This is what this debate boils down to. What is reasonable? I think an enforced ban on smoking in households with minors present is unreasonable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Rahvin, posted 04-15-2009 6:29 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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