Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 119 (8778 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-18-2017 12:14 PM
365 online now:
Coyote, DrJones*, JonF, New Cat's Eye, ooh-child, PaulK, ringo, Tangle, Taq (9 members, 356 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: BruceR.Fenton
Post Volume:
Total: 816,326 Year: 20,932/21,208 Month: 1,365/2,326 Week: 701/345 Day: 63/161 Hour: 4/10

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
303132
33
3435Next
Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 481 of 518 (812548)
06-17-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Faith
06-16-2017 11:02 PM


The TRVE history of the Flood... Message 1090 copied here
Faith in Message 1085: The sorting is a secondary issue when the trilobites climb the supposed Geological Time Scale for hundreds of millions of years without changing any more than we see any creature microevolving in a few observable years in current time, same as the coelecanths, while evo theory has reptiles evolving into mammals in a time period or two. The whole thing is a big fat sham.

Proving you have no idea what you are talking about.

quote:
What are Trilobites?

Trilobites are remarkable, hard-shelled, segmented creatures that existed over 520 million years ago in the Earth's ancient seas. They went extinct before dinosaurs even came into existence, and are one of the key signature creatures of the Paleozoic Era, the first era to exhibit a proliferation of the complex life-forms that established the foundation of life as it is today. Although dinosaurs are the most well-known fossil animals, trilobites are also a favorite among those familiar with Paleontology (the study of the development of life on Earth), and are found in the rocks of all continents.

ANCIENT ARTHROPODS
Trilobites were among the early arthropods, a phylum of hard-shelled creatures with multiple body segments and jointed legs (although the legs, antennae and other finer structures of trilobites only rarely are preserved). They constitute an extinct class of arthropods, the Trilobita, made up of ten orders, over 150 families, about 5,000 genera, and over 20,000 described species. New species of trilobites are unearthed and described every year. This makes trilobites the single most diverse class of extinct organisms, and within the generalized body plan of trilobites there was a great deal of diversity of size and form. The smallest known trilobite species is under a millimeter long, while the largest include species from 30 to over 70 cm in length (roughly a foot to over two feet long!). With such a diversity of species and sizes, speculations on the ecology of trilobites includes planktonic, swimming, and crawling forms, and we can presume they filled a varied set of trophic (feeding) niches, although perhaps mostly as detritivores, predators, or scavengers. Most trilobites are about an inch long, and part of their appeal is that you can hold and examine an entire fossil animal and turn it about in your hand. Try that with your average dinosaur!

Trilobite Order Galleries
Click on any of the (Order names)* below to be sent to a gallery featuring photos of trilobites in that Order

agnostidaredlichiidacorynexochidaodontopleuridalichida
phacopidaasaphidaproetidaharpetidaptychopariida

* - (adapted to table format with links on names instead of pictures)

... without changing any more than we see any creature microevolving in a few observable years in current time ...

Wrong. Note: "... ten orders, over 150 families, about 5,000 genera, and over 20,000 described species. New species of trilobites are unearthed and described every year. This makes trilobites the single most diverse class of extinct organisms, and within the generalized body plan of trilobites there was a great deal of diversity of size and form. ..."

Some were bottom feeders others were swimmers. Some ate vegetation, some preyed on other organisms.

... same as the coelecanths, ...

And wrong again.

quote:
The coelacanths ... constitute a now rare order of fish that includes two extant species in the genus Latimeria: the West Indian Ocean coelacanth (Latimeria chalumnae) primarily found near the Comoro Islands off the east coast of Africa and the Indonesian coelacanth (Latimeria menadoensis).[2] They follow the oldest known living lineage of Sarcopterygii (lobe-finned fish and tetrapods), which means they are more closely related to lungfish, reptiles, and mammals than to the common ray-finned fishes. They are found along the coastlines of the Indian Ocean and Indonesia.[3][4] Since there are only two species of coelacanth and both are threatened, it is the most endangered order of animals in the world. The West Indian Ocean coelacanth is a critically endangered species.

Coelacanths belong to the subclass Actinistia, a group of lobed-finned fish related to lungfish and certain extinct Devonian fish such as osteolepiforms, porolepiforms, rhizodonts, and Panderichthys.[5] Coelacanths were thought to have become extinct in the Late Cretaceous, around 66 million years ago, but were rediscovered in 1938 off the coast of South Africa.[6][7]

The coelacanth was long considered a "living fossil" because it was believed to be the sole remaining member of a taxon otherwise known only from fossils, with no close relations alive,[5] and to have evolved into roughly its current form approximately 400 million years ago.[1] However, several recent studies have shown that coelacanth body shapes are much more diverse than previously thought.[8][9][10]

Another important discovery made from the genome sequencing, is that the coelacanths are still evolving today (but at a relatively slow rate). This contradicts the earlier thought that these creatures were "living fossils." What this means is that they were thought to be a prehistoric species that has remained unchanged over millions of years. With the discovery of their evolution, "living fossil" no longer seems like an appropriate term to describe these unique creatures.[34]

Reasons for such slow evolution by the coelacanths could be the lack of evolutionary pressure on these organisms. They have few predators, and they live deep in the Indian Ocean where conditions are said to be very stable. Without much pressure for these organisms to adapt to survive, the rate at which they need to evolve is much slower in comparison to other organisms.[34]

Taxonomy

The following is a classification of known coelacanth genera and families:[5][10][26][35][36][37][38]

  • Order Coelacanthiformes
    • Family Whiteiidae (Triassic)
      • Piveteauia
      • Whiteia

    • Family Rebellatricidae (Triassic)
      • Rebellatrix

    • Family Coelacanthidae (Permian to Jurassic)
      • Axelia
      • Coelacanthus
      • Ticinepomis
      • Wimania

  • Suborder Latimerioidei
    • Family Mawsoniidae (Triassic to Jurassic)
      • Alcoveria
      • Axelrodichthys
      • Chinlea
      • Diplurus
      • Garnbergia
      • Mawsonia
      • Parnaibaia

    • Family Latimeriidae L. S. Berg, 1940 (Triassic to Holocene)
      • Holophagus
      • Latimeria J. L. B. Smith, 1939
        • Latimeria chalumnae J. L. B. Smith, 1939 (West Indian Ocean coelacanth)
        • Latimeria menadoensis Pouyaud, Wirjoatmodjo, Rachmatika, Tjakrawidjaja, Hadiaty & Hadie, 1999 (Indonesian coelacanth)

      • Libys
      • Macropoma
      • Macropomoides
      • Megacoelacanthus
      • Swenzia
      • Undina

While not as numerous and diverse as the trilobites, they still show "more we see any creature microevolving in a few observable years in current time."

Ignorance is no refutation of the real world facts.

Enjoy

(copied from The TRVE history of the Flood... Message 1090)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 11:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Pressie, posted 06-19-2017 8:45 AM RAZD has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 482 of 518 (812658)
06-19-2017 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 481 by RAZD
06-17-2017 11:58 AM


Re: The TRVE history of the Flood... Message 1090 copied here
RAZD, after all of this; YEC's are convinced that the existence of Prokaryote fossils from 3.8 billion years ago somehow refutes ToE. Not too sure why they think this.

You really are wasting your time showing reality to them.

However, other people learn a lot from your posts. I've basically learned all of my biology and paleontology and genetics and and and from people of your "kind". Please keep up the good work.

Edited by Pressie, : Spelling mistake. Changed "However, other people learn a lot from you posts." to "However, other people learn a lot from your posts."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by RAZD, posted 06-17-2017 11:58 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by RAZD, posted 06-19-2017 12:19 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 483 of 518 (812677)
06-19-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Pressie
06-19-2017 8:45 AM


And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
However, other people learn a lot from your posts. I've basically learned all of my biology and paleontology and genetics and and and from people of your "kind". Please keep up the good work.

And what I know about geology and genetics I learned here. It is a learning environment ... for those who want to learn.

Continuing with the trilobites we can look at when they became extinct:

quote:
Final extinction

Exactly why the trilobites became extinct is not clear; with repeated extinction events (often followed by apparent recovery) throughout the trilobite fossil record, a combination of causes is likely. After the extinction event at the end of the Devonian period, what trilobite diversity remained was bottlenecked into the order Proetida. Decreasing diversity[29] of genera limited to shallow-water shelf habitats, coupled with a drastic lowering of sea level (regression) meant that the final decline of trilobites happened shortly before the end of the Permian mass extinction event.[21] With so many marine species involved in the Permian extinction, the end of nearly 300 million successful years for the trilobite would not have been unexpected at the time.[29]

The closest known extant relatives of trilobites are the horseshoe crabs,[9].


So now, adding to the problems of fossil sorting for the creationists is the Horseshoe crab (Coelacanths are not the only "living fossils" in the sea). Horseshoe crabs have been around for 450 million years, and they are the blue bloods of the ocean ... because their blood is literally blue.

quote:
Horseshoe crabs are marine arthropods of the family Limulidae and order Xiphosura or Xiphosurida. They are invertebrates, meaning that they lack a spine. Horseshoe crabs live primarily in and around shallow ocean waters on soft sandy or muddy bottoms. They occasionally come onto shore to mate. They are commonly used as bait and in fertilizer. In recent years, population declines have occurred as a consequence of coastal habitat destruction in Japan and overharvesting along the east coast of North America. Tetrodotoxin may be present in the roe of species inhabiting the waters of Thailand.[2]

Because of their origin 450 million years ago, horseshoe crabs are considered living fossils.[3]

Horseshoe crabs superficially resemble crustaceans. They belong to a separate subphylum, Chelicerata, and are closely related to arachnids.[4] The earliest horseshoe crab fossils are found in strata from the late Ordovician period, roughly 450 million years ago.

The Limulidae are the only recent family of the order Xiphosura, and contains all four living species of horseshoe crabs:[1]

  • Carcinoscorpius rotundicauda, the mangrove horseshoe crab, found in Southeast Asia
  • Limulus polyphemus, the Atlantic horseshoe crab, found along the American Atlantic coast and in the Gulf of Mexico
  • Tachypleus gigas, found in Southeast and East Asia
  • Tachypleus tridentatus, found in Southeast and East Asia

Unlike vertebrates, horseshoe crabs do not have hemoglobin in their blood, but instead use hemocyanin to carry oxygen. Because of the copper present in hemocyanin, their blood is blue. Their blood contains amebocytes, which play a similar role to the white blood cells of vertebrates in defending the organism against pathogens. Amebocytes from the blood of L. polyphemus are used to make Limulus amebocyte lysate, which is used for the detection of bacterial endotoxins in medical applications.[17] ...


Now the trilobites became extinct nearly 300 million years ago, so there was a period of overlap with the Horseshoe crab of about 120 million years.

So combining trilobites and horseshoe crabs we have a continuous span of marine life from the lower (early) cambrian to the present day. Each species is associated with specific time periods that are defined by both relative dating (the law of superposition) and by absolute radiometric dating. Early horse shoe crabs can be found in the same strata as late trilobites, but early trilobites are not found in the same strata as late Horseshoe crabs, and the strata they are found in are always associated with specific radioactive isotope levels that follow the pattern of the relative dating of the layers.

There was no mixing of the layers. Based on the levels of radioactive isotopes extant in the layers, each layer took centuries to form.

There was no sorting of the fossils. They all lived and died during the periods that the layers were growing by the gradual accretion of sediments and the detritus of marine life on the ocean floors.

The fossils show it by the way they are found in the sediments along with evidence of mature marine living ecosystems, and the radioactive isotopes show it by the different levels they are measured at for the different layers.

The obvious conclusion is that none of these layers were disturbed, or in any way affected, by a purported global flood.

When these fossils are found on mountains, it is because of tectonic activity pushing plates together and forcing one plate over another, piling it up ... in a process that is observed to day in the continued rise of the alps and the rocky mountains.

Floods don't move tectonic plates and floods don't create mountains -- they erode them.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Pressie, posted 06-19-2017 8:45 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 11:09 PM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 484 of 518 (812742)
06-19-2017 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by RAZD
06-19-2017 12:19 PM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
Floods don't move tectonic plates and floods don't create mountains -- they erode them.

Of course "floods" don't do either of those things, what a silly straw man. But THE Flood built sedimentary strata which was full of dead things which became fossils, and some mountains are strata that was tectonically pushed up into mountains. And I happen to think this all occurred at the end of Noah's Flood in a great tectonic cataclysm that had something to do with causing the Flood water to recede. It also caused the separation of the continents and other interesting phenomena. Not the Flood, but geological processes connected with it.

Horseshoe crabs, some of them anyway, do look quite a bit like trilobites. And I guess I'd think of them as I think of the other "living fossils" as evidence against the ToE because the changes they show are just variations within the Kind over hundreds of millions of years. Funny how the creatures that don't show such a lengthy fossil history, where there is no evidence of evolution that is, are assumed to have evolved from one thing into another, such as reptiles into mammals, whereas when there is actual evidence from one time period to another of the changes to a creature -- like trilobites, horseshoe crabs and coelecanths, the differences are obviously the expected changes within the Kind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by RAZD, posted 06-19-2017 12:19 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by RAZD, posted 06-20-2017 4:33 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 486 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 5:47 AM Faith has responded
 Message 488 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 5:59 AM Faith has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 485 of 518 (812757)
06-20-2017 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Faith
06-19-2017 11:09 PM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
Of course "floods" don't do either of those things, what a silly straw man. But THE Flood built sedimentary strata which was full of dead things which became fossils, ...

And this magic carpet flying flood carried whole ecosystems of living marine life complete with built-up accretion of silts and detritus of previous generations used as substrates to grow on, carried them intact with all the evidence of a continuous flow of lives one on top of the other, undisturbed ... brachiopods with their fragile stems still attached to shells of previous brachiopods ...

... and some mountains are strata that was tectonically pushed up into mountains. ...

... with those piled up intact accumulation of mature marine ecosystems that showed generations of growth on top of generations of growth ... sorted by organism/species type, sorted by radioactive isotope levels ...

... And I happen to think this all occurred at the end of Noah's Flood in a great tectonic cataclysm that had something to do with causing the Flood water to recede. ...

... that you totally made up out of thin air like all your other "explanations" and "proofs" ...

... It also caused the separation of the continents and other interesting phenomena. Not the Flood, but geological processes connected with it.

... oops, there you go making the flood move those tectonic plates, and presumably cooling them from overheating due to the massive friction fast-track movement makes ... with the animals already off the ark so they can be sorted onto the appropriate continents to sort their fossils geographically as they rapidly evolved before they got buried by the sediments ...

Horseshoe crabs, some of them anyway, do look quite a bit like trilobites. ...

Gosh, they are related!

... And I guess I'd think of them as I think of the other "living fossils" as evidence against the ToE because the changes they show are just variations within the Kind over hundreds of millions of years. ...

Well you're "evidence against the ToE" is a straw man because you don't understand why continual variation and adaptation actually shows evolution in an ecological environment that doesn't change that much. You only think so because that fits your beliefs, while you ignore the details of the evidence ... as always.

Organisms don't need to evolve significantly if they are well suited to their ecology or are adaptable to different ecologies, but they still evolve via little changes and permutations. It's the little details that show continual evolution.

The ones living today are also completely different species from the ones in the fossil record, and are only small handful of species compared to the large diversified numbers of species in the fossil record

... Funny how the creatures that don't show such a lengthy fossil history, where there is no evidence of evolution that is, ...

... if you ignore the details that do show a lengthy fossil history and plenty of evidence of evolution ...

... are assumed to have evolved from one thing into another, such as reptiles into mammals, ...

Where curiously we do have fossils of transitions, including the clear transition from reptile jaw made from three bones through intermediate forms of therapsids (Probainognathus and Diarthrognathus for example) with two jaw hinges and then to a mammal jaw made of one of the reptile jaw bones while the other two are adapted to form part of the mammal ear -- the same bones the reptiles used while part of their jaw to transmit sounds to their single ear bone that makes up the third bone in the mammal ear -- and at the same time with teeth becoming differentiated into typical mammal teeth from the typical reptilian teeth.

But this is not relevant to this thread about Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits, so it should be discussed on another thread.

... , whereas when there is actual evidence from one time period to another of the changes to a creature -- like trilobites, horseshoe crabs and coelecanths, the differences are obviously the expected changes within the Kind.

You mean within nested clades, as expected by the theory of evolution, taking into account their ecological conditions. Species after species, the ones today are not the ones from yesterday, they are descendants, evolved descendants, and they are proof that there was no flood, or at least that they were completely unaffected by the magic flying carpet flood and massive terraforming activity you use to attempt to explain the geology.

Everything arranged and magically sorted to imitate old age intentionally ... the big joke of the joker god/s ...

And you still cannot explain the radioactive isotope levels sorted with the fossils as if they were the remnants of long ages of decay, magically sorted by the magic carpet flying flood.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 11:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 486 of 518 (812758)
06-20-2017 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Faith
06-19-2017 11:09 PM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
Faith writes:

Of course "floods" don't do either of those things, what a silly straw man. But THE Flood built sedimentary strata which was full of dead things which became fossils,....

And magically ensured that the coarsest and heaviest material don't end up at the bottom. According to you gravity didn't work. Sure, Faith. Magic.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 11:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 5:56 AM Pressie has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 487 of 518 (812760)
06-20-2017 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by Pressie
06-20-2017 5:47 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
I'm sure the coarsest ended up wherever it should end up in any given deposition.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 5:47 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 6:13 AM Faith has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 488 of 518 (812761)
06-20-2017 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Faith
06-19-2017 11:09 PM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
This one is always funny to me.

Faith writes:

And I guess I'd think of them as I think of the other "living fossils" as evidence against the ToE because the changes they show are just variations within the Kind over hundreds of millions of years.

I'm not too sure why you think that the existence of living organisms such as Prokaryotes (also living fossils) today somehow is contrary to the TOE. Could you explain why you think it's evidence against "the ToE"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 11:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 6:11 AM Pressie has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 489 of 518 (812762)
06-20-2017 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 488 by Pressie
06-20-2017 5:59 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
Haven't mentioned prokaryotes, but gave plenty of reasoning on the trilobites and coelecanths, and more recently added the horseshoe crabs. Don't even you with your odd way of laughing at Nothing recognize that these creatures are found in a great many "time periods" up the Geological Time Scale, adding up to hundreds of millions of years, without changing to any degree that would suggest something other than a trilobite, coelacanth or horseshoe crab, while some creatures that are found in only one or two "time periods" are assumed to have evolved into something dramatically different in a time period above them?

I mean even you ought to stop and ponder how, when we have actual evidence we see no evolution whatever, just the usual changes within the Species creationists expect to see, while when there is no evidence at all, great leaps are made to assume evolution between dramatically different creatures, such as from reptiles to mammals.

I know the ToE and the OE have an iron grip on your brain, but break the shackles, man, and see what's really going on here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 5:59 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 6:21 AM Faith has responded
 Message 495 by RAZD, posted 06-20-2017 8:43 AM Faith has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 490 of 518 (812763)
06-20-2017 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by Faith
06-20-2017 5:56 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
Faith. Fill up a flask with water. Add clays and gravels and plant material and whatever. Shake it all up. Put it on a shelf.

The coarsest and heaviest material always settle on the bottom first. The lighter and finest material always settle at the top. In one layer. Grading from coarsest and heaviest at the bottom to the finest and heaviest material settling at the top. The "layer" you get grades from the coarsest and heaviest at the bottom to the finest and lightest at the top...

It really is easy. Anyone can do it. We did it in a physical science class when I was 10 years old. The teacher tried to explain how gravity works.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 5:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 6:14 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 491 of 518 (812764)
06-20-2017 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by Pressie
06-20-2017 6:13 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
As I said, I'm sure whatever forms a particular deposit follows the laws of settling just fine.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 6:13 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 492 of 518 (812765)
06-20-2017 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
06-20-2017 6:11 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
I'm still trying to figure out why you think the existence of living trilobites, coelecanths, horseshoe crabs and Prokaryotes somehow refutes "the ToE".

I still don't get your reasoning.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 6:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 6:23 AM Pressie has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25823
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 493 of 518 (812766)
06-20-2017 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Pressie
06-20-2017 6:21 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
I just explained it. Weird you can't follow what I said. (But there are no living trilobites)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 6:21 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by Pressie, posted 06-20-2017 6:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 494 of 518 (812767)
06-20-2017 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 493 by Faith
06-20-2017 6:23 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
I really, really don't get your reasoning. Care to try and explain again?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 6:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 495 of 518 (812787)
06-20-2017 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
06-20-2017 6:11 AM


Re: And then there are the Horseshoe Crabs.
... adding up to hundreds of millions of years, without changing to any degree that would suggest something other than a trilobite, coelacanth or horseshoe crab, ...

Again with the typical ignorant creationist thinking.

Trilobite is not a species, it is a subphylum with 10 orders and over 20,000 known species divided into different genera and families in those orders. There are no living trilobites.

Coelacanth is not a species, it is an order with 7 families and many genera:

quote:
Timeline of genera


And Horseshoe crab is not a species.

quote:
Taxonomy

Order Synziphosurida
family Weinberginidae
family Bunodidae
family Pseudoniscidae
family Kasibelinuridae

Order Xiphosurida
superfamily Bellinuroidea (including Euproopacea)
family Bellinuridae
family Euproopidae
family Elleriidae

superfamily unspecified
family Rolfeiidae

superfamily Limuloidea
family Paleolimulidae
family Moravuridae
family "Valloisellidae"
family Austrolimulidae
family Heterolimulidae
family Limulidae

Order Synziphosurida (Basal Xiphosura)

Silurian to Early Devonian.

Cyamocephalus loganensis Currie 1927
Length about 5 cm - family Pseudoniscidae
Late Llandovery or possibly early Wenlock,
Silurian period, Scotland (Euramerica)

Yessiree that image looks just exactly like the modern horseshoe crab ... hardly changed at all.

Yep there are only a few "living fossils" so evolution must be false if it doesn't force species to evolve more ...

quote:
Living Fossil

A living fossil is an extant taxon that closely resembles organisms otherwise known only from the fossil record. As a rule, to be considered a living fossil, the fossil species must be old relative to the time of origin of the extant clade. Living fossils commonly are species-poor lineages, but that is not a necessary condition. The term living fossil is not formally defined, but in scientific literature commonly appears to imply a bradytelic group, one tending to a slow rate of evolution.[1]

In the popular literature "living fossil" commonly embodies radical misunderstandings such as that the organism somehow has undergone no significant evolution since fossil times, with practically neither morphological nor molecular evolution, but scientific investigations have repeatedly discredited any such claims.[2][3][4][5]

Living fossils are not expected to exhibit exceptionally low rates of molecular evolution, and some studies have shown that they do not.[19] For example, on tadpole shrimp (Triops), one article notes, "Our work shows that organisms with conservative body plans are constantly radiating, and presumably, adapting to novel conditions.... I would favor retiring the term ‘living fossil’ altogether, as it is generally misleading."[20]

Examples

Bacteria

  • Stromatolite, a layered structure created as sediment is trapped by shallow-water, oxygen-creating, blue-green bacteria

Protists

  • The dinoflagellate †Calciodinellum operosum.[11]
  • The dinoflagellate †Dapsilidinium pastielsii.[13]
  • The dinoflagellate †Posoniella tricarinelloides.[12]
  • The coccolithophore Tergestiella adriatica.[28]

Plants

  • Pteridophytes
    • Horsetails – Equisetum
    • Lycopodiums
    • Tree ferns
    • Moss

  • Gymnosperms
    • Agathis - Agathis in Australia and the Pacific including Almasiga trees in the Philippines
    • Araucaria araucana – the monkey puzzle tree (as well as other extant Araucaria species)
    • Cycads
    • Ginkgo tree (Ginkgoaceae)
    • Metasequoia – dawn redwood (Cupressaceae; related to Sequoia and Sequoiadendron)
    • Sciadopitys "Japanese umbrella pine"
    • Taiwania cryptomerioides – one of the largest tree species in Asia.
    • Wollemia tree (Araucariaceae – a borderline example, related to Agathis and Araucaria)[29][30]
    • Welwitschia

  • Angiosperms
    • Amborella – a plant from New Caledonia, possibly closest to base of the flowering plants
    • Trapa - water caltrops, seeds, and leaves of numerous extinct species are known all the way back to the Cretaceous.
    • Nelumbo - several species of lotus flower are known exclusively from fossils dating back to the Cretaceous.

Fungi

  • Neolecta

Animals

  • Vertebrates

    • Mammals

      • Aardvark (Orycteropus afer)
      • Amami rabbit (Pentalagus furnessi)[31]
      • Chevrotain (Tragulidae)[citation needed]
      • Elephant shrew (Macroscelidea)[citation needed]
      • Laotian rock rat (Laonastes aenigmamus)[citation needed]
      • Monito del monte (Dromiciops gliroides)
      • Monotremes (the platypus and echidna)
      • Mountain beaver (Aplodontia rufa)
      • Okapi (Okapia johnstoni)[32]
      • Opossums (Didelphidae)
      • Capybara (Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris)[citation needed]
      • Red panda (Ailurus fulgens)[33]
      • Solenodon (Solenodon cubanus and Solenodon paradoxus)
      • Shrew opossum (Caenolestidae)
      • False killer whale (Pseudorca crassidens)
      • Pygmy right whale (Caperea marginata)[34][35]

    • Birds

      • Pelicans (Pelecanus) – Morphology has been virtually unchanged since the Eocene, and is noted to have been even more conserved across the Cenozoic than that of crocodiles.[36]
      • Acanthisittidae (New Zealand "wrens") – 2 living species, a few more recently extinct. Distinct lineage of Passeriformes.
      • Broad-billed sapayoa (Sapayoa aenigma) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Tyranni.
      • Bearded reedling (Panurus biarmicus) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Passerida or Sylvioidea.
      • Coliiformes (mousebirds) – 6 living species in 2 genera. Distinct lineage of Neoaves.
      • Hoatzin (Ophisthocomus hoazin) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Neoaves.
      • Magpie goose (Anseranas semipalmata) – One living species. Distinct lineage of Anseriformes.
      • Seriema (Cariamidae) – 2 living species. Distinct lineage of Cariamae.
      • Tinamiformes (tinamous) 50 living species. Distinct lineage of Palaeognathae.

    • Reptiles

      • Alligator snapping turtle (Macrochelys temminckii)
      • Crocodilia (crocodiles, gavials, caimans and alligators)
      • Pig-nosed turtle (Carettochelys insculpta)
      • Snapping turtle (Chelydra serpentina)
      • Tuatara (Sphenodon punctatus and Sphenodon guntheri)

    • Amphibians

      • Giant salamanders (Cryptobranchus and Andrias)
      • Hula painted frog (Latonia nigriventer)[37]
      • Purple frog (Nasikabatrachus sahyadrensis)

    • Jawless fish

      • Hagfish (Myxinidae) Family

    • Bony fish

      • Arowana and arapaima (Osteoglossidae)
      • Bowfin (Amia calva)
      • Coelacanth (the lobed-finned Latimeria menadoensis and Latimeria chalumnae)
      • Gar (Lepisosteidae)
      • Queensland lungfish (Neoceratodus fosteri)
      • Sturgeons and paddlefish (Acipenseriformes)
      • Bichir (Polypteridae) family
      • Protanguilla palau
      • Mudskipper (Oxudercinae)

    • Sharks

      • Blind shark (Brachaelurus waddi)
      • Bullhead shark (Heterodontus sp.)
      • Elephant shark (Callorhinchus milii)
      • Frilled shark (Chlamydoselachus sp.)
      • Goblin shark (Mitsukurina owstoni)
      • Gulper shark (Centrophorus sp.)

  • Invertebrates

    • Insects

      • Mantophasmatodea (gladiators; a few living species)
      • Meropeidae (3 living species, 4 extinct)
      • Micromalthus debilis (a beetle)
      • Mymarommatid wasps (10 living species in genus Palaeomymar)
      • Nevrorthidae (3 species-poor genera)
      • Nothomyrmecia (known as the dinosaur ant)
      • Notiothauma reedi (a scorpionfly relative)
      • Orussidae (parasitic wood wasps; about 70 living species in 16 genera)
      • Peloridiidae (peloridiid bugs; fewer than 30 living species in 13 genera)
      • Sikhotealinia zhiltzovae (a jurodid beetle)
      • Syntexis libocedrii (Anaxyelidae cedar wood wasp)

    • Crustaceans
      • Glypheoidea (2 living species: Neoglyphea inopinata and Laurentaeglyphea neocaledonica)
      • Stomatopods (mantis shrimp)
      • Triops cancriformis (also known as tadpole shrimp; a notostracan crustacean)

    • Molluscs
      • Nautilina (e.g., Nautilus pompilius)
      • Vampyroteuthis infernalis – vampire squid

    • Other invertebrates
      • Crinoids
      • Horseshoe crabs (only 4 living species of the class Xiphosura, family Limulidae: Limulus polyphemus, Tachypleus gigas, Tachypleus tridentatus, and Carcinoscorpius rotundicauda)
      • Lingula anatina (an inarticulate brachiopod)
      • Liphistiidae (trapdoor spiders)
      • Onychophorans (velvet worms)
      • Valdiviathyris quenstedti (a craniforman brachiopod)
      • Paleodictyon nodosum (unknown)

All of these have a close appearing ancestor that can be found in the fossil record. They persist because they are successful at surviving and breeding, not because evolution is not happening.

Of course that is only a small cross-section of the full diversity of life on earth ... and some of these have given birth to other lineages that aren't listed.

ie -- how are trilobites and horseshoe crabs related if there was no evolution?

I mean even you ought to stop and ponder how, when we have actual evidence we see no evolution whatever, just the usual changes within the Species {kinds} creationists expect to see, ...

Calling them a species is a lie when you are talking about orders ... so I changed it to typical creationist undefined {kind} for you.

And which scientists call evolution, gradual evolution from generation to generation with all offspring being members of the parent population, forming a clade when they have daughter populations ... as has occurred for trilobites, coelacanths and horseshoe crabs ...

... while when there is no evidence at all, great leaps are made to assume evolution between dramatically different creatures, such as from reptiles to mammals.

And we can start another thread to deal with this falsehood or take it to Evolution of the Mammalian Jaw. It isn't relevant to this thread, unlike trilobites (and other marine growth like coelacanths and horseshoe crabs).

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : Evolution of the Mammalian Jaw

Edited by RAZD, : i


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 6:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 8:50 AM RAZD has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
303132
33
3435Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017