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Author Topic:   changes in modern man
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 69 (418958)
08-31-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Refpunk
08-31-2007 10:06 AM


what superior species would humans be evolving into according to them?
None. Species don't evolve into superior species. They evolve into species that are better able to survive and reproduce in the particular environment in which they are found.
Edited by Chiroptera, : typo

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Refpunk, posted 08-31-2007 10:06 AM Refpunk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Refpunk, posted 08-31-2007 10:18 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 69 (418965)
08-31-2007 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Refpunk
08-31-2007 10:18 AM


Response to off-topic comment
The weak and the strong ALWAYS co-exist in every single species.
Better terms would be "less fit" and "better fit" since the characteristics that determine fitness may not correspond to our usual notions of "strength".
But be that as it may, you are correct here, but that is an important ingredient for evolution.
Any population does have less fit and better fit individuals. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any evolution. Evolution needs the existence of individuals that vary in fitness.
But, simply by common sense, the less fit individuals will have fewer offspring than the better fit individuals. I mean, even creationists before Darwin understood that natural selection exists. Less fit individuals will not have as many offspring as better fit individuals -- heck, that is the definition of "fitness"!
So the next generation will have fewer individuals of the less fit type and more individuals of the better fit type. But of course, there will be new variations -- genetic mutations if you will -- which will produce slightly new types of individuals (although not necessarily identical to types in the previous generation), and some of these new variations will make the individuals even better fit, and some will make them less fit, and so, again the population will have better fit individuals and less fit individuals.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Refpunk, posted 08-31-2007 10:18 AM Refpunk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Refpunk, posted 08-31-2007 10:36 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 69 (418975)
08-31-2007 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Refpunk
08-31-2007 10:36 AM


Re: Response to off-topic comment
In fact, it is a well-known fact that Darwin's opinions had a deep affect on the Nazi's in the mid-century by trying to define which human race is fitter than another.
What is it that creationists have trouble sticking to a topic? No wonder you are all so abysmal at science -- your attention span is too short to actually learn anything in any depth.
If you want to talk about Nazis, then bring it up in the appropriate threads. It doesn't have any bearing on whether the theory of evolution is the correct description of the history of life on earth.
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It is also untrue that people considered "less fit" than others can't have more children than those who are considered "fit".
This is false. This is the definition of "fitness". If individuals sharing a certain set of characteristics don't have more offspring than others, then, by definition, they weren't better fit.
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We still have deformed babies, even from couples considered "fit."
If the deformities were not inherited from the parents, then this is irrelevant to evolution. Evolution is determined by inherited characteristics.
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In fact, one of Einsteins children was considered mentally retarded.
Then I guess that "Einsteinness" isn't hereditary, and so is irrelevant to evolution.
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So no, "fit" parents (whatever that means) DO NOT NECESSARILY BREED FIT OFFPSRING.
Sure they do, by definition. An individual is better fit if it produces more offspring than other individuals and if this is due to inherited characteristics. If an individual does not produce any viable offspring, then by definition it wasn't better fit to begin with. The individual will produce more offspring, and many of these offspring will share the inherited characterists, and so these characteristics will be more prevalent in the next generation.
Of course, mutations and environmentally induced "deformities" will occur. But these will be relatively rare, so that statistically, on average, better fit individuals will leave more offspring that will have the better fitness characteristics.
And the new "deformities" are important -- some of these "deformities" will actually be advantages to the individual, and so will supply the raw material on which evolution works.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Refpunk, posted 08-31-2007 10:36 AM Refpunk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Refpunk, posted 08-31-2007 10:59 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 69 (419012)
08-31-2007 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Refpunk
08-31-2007 10:59 AM


Still off-topic comment, but it's fun. Sorry brenn.
My analogy of the nazi's was showing precisely what happens when people try to play God and judge who's fit and who isn't.
No one is playing God. All anyone is doing is describing what happens in the real world. Some individuals have more offspring than others. That is a fact. In many cases in the wild, the reasons that some individuals have more offspring than others is due to inheritable physical characteristics. That, too, is a fact. We use the word "fitness" to describe this phenomenon.
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By your definition of fit, you are claiming that only those who have many children are fit. That means that the Bedouins in the Middle east and the people in areas of the world who do nothing but stay at home and have sex with each other are more fit than anyone else in the world.
Yes, by simple definition, that would be "fitness". If the reasons that these individuals have more children are due to inheritable characteristics, then this would be relevant to evolution.
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That argument is not only LUDICROUS AND JUDGMENTAL....
It's not ludicrous -- this is what we see in the real world. Some individuals have more offspring than other individuals. In most instances in nature, this is due to inheritable physical characteristics.
It is not judgemental. It is simply a statement of fact. Some individuals have more offspring than others. In most cases in nature, this is due to inheritable physical characteristics.
This phenomenon is observed and it is real. We use the word "fitness" as a label for this phenomenon.
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So until anyone here is interested in being objective and rational, then further conversation about this won't be productive.
Oh, I don't know. People reading this exchange might learn something. Certainly, I think that exposing the ignorance and irrationality of creationists is a productive activity.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Refpunk, posted 08-31-2007 10:59 AM Refpunk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-31-2007 1:23 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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