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Author | Topic: How does one distinguish faith from delusion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
themasterdebator Inactive Member |
[qs]Well that's a caveat that didn't exist in the OP. As I recall, it was asking about how you tell the difference between faith and delusion.
And his response was within that I believe. How do you tell the difference between the delusional KGB person and a christian in regards to faith versus delusion? How do you distinguish between the two? I believe distinguishing the two would be vitally important if someone plans on treating their beliefs as the truth.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
themasterdebator writes: Thanks, I believe this covers my beliefs very accurately. And the fact is that most major religions belief their faith is an accurate representation of reality. No problem. And I agree with your fact, thanks for pointing it out, I havn't thought about it enough to make the connection yet. To rephrase: What I've been saying to describe the word "delusional" would certainly include many major religious beliefs... especially those that include preaching in the "witnessing" sense. This leads directly back to what Rahvin was saying. That the only difference between "delusion" and "faith" is the popularization within society to think of faith as normal and therefore creating a cognitive dissonance in connecting anything 'normal' to being 'negative' in the sense that comes with being delusional. However, when we get right down to it and go over the specific defintions, it's easy to see.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Stile,
Stile writes: In Message 28 you said quote: In Message 32 I simply demonstrated how you will have the answer and know whether the claims are true.
Stile writes: I do not believe there is a Christian God as depicted by the Bible. I stand corrected. You just don't believe in a Christian God. The rest of your rant has nothing to do with my post. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
The rest of your rant has nothing to do with my post. And as ever, your posts consist of preaching,not a response to the topic. Nowhere do you discuss how we can differentiate faith from delusion, or whether there is any difference at all. Potential judgment after death has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread, as once we're dead, there seems to be no way to tell the living world whether given beliefs are true or false. Here in the world of the living, we have no objective way to differentiate between faith and delusion, because neither is based on evidence, and both ignore contradictory evidence. Both are recognized as an increased level of confidence that a given assertion is true with no objective reason to believe it is true. The only distinguishing factor seems to be one of popularity - those beliefs that are found to be at least "reasonable" by a sufficiently large population are regarded as "faith," while others are identified as "delusion." Aside from this blatant appeal to popularity, there seems to be no distinction between the two whatsoever. Your off topic preaching is a waste of posting space.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
There are many refutations of Pascal's Wager. This is hardly a new thought or argument. I find it quite interesting that an argument from the mid 1600's still gets so much play.
There have been many criticism's of Pascal's Wager since it was first introduced. Logical it fails at first blush. It allows 2 choices: belief in the christian god or not. These are not the only possibilities so at initial glance the wager fails. Maybe you mnight want to look at the wiki page to see how the argument fails.
Pascal's Wager - Criticismsquote: quote: quote: How about the Atheist Wager as an alternative?
quote: Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Kitsune Member (Idle past 4330 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
Hi Stile,
So what you want us to talk about and what the OP said are slightly different things. I'm fine with that. The interesting part of the quote in question, IMO, was:
quote: What people seem to be wanting here is a very definite distinction between verifiable and unverifiable reality. I think that can be a tricky line to draw. For example, some people believe that their faith is the only "true" faith. These people tend to be frightened and angry, and usually pretty ignorant of the ways of others as well. Should we equate closed-mindedness with delusion? Is it delusional to try to convert others to one's way of thinking? Actually that's what we all are doing in a way, by debating here (hopefully with some open-mindedness mixed in).
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Kitsune Member (Idle past 4330 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
quote: Wisdom and discretion. If someone honestly had trouble distinguishing between those two examples then they, as well, would probably be considered deluded. Christianity is not a mental illness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Atheists have faith that there is no god, or gods, or anything transcendent. That would be a big no. There is no evidence for a god, so therefore I do not have a belief in a god. There is no evidence for a god, but those that have faith have faith that there is a god. One stance is based on the evidence, the other is based on faith. Big difference. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Kitsune Member (Idle past 4330 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
quote: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I can see that you are getting overwhelmed with responses here so I will keep this brief.
Is it delusional to try to convert others to one's way of thinking? Actually that's what we all are doing in a way, by debating here (hopefully with some open-mindedness mixed in). Do you see a difference between presenting evidence in order to convince others and simply trying to convince someone that if they believe in something that inherently cannot be evidenced it will be somehow beneficial? Doesn't faith based thinking necessarily require the latter approach?
What people seem to be wanting here is a very definite distinction between verifiable and unverifiable reality. No. Simply an honest distinction between what it is possible to consider evidenced (or even experienced) and what it is not. We only have material methods of sensory perception (unless you are claiming otherwise?). If it is claimed that we are experiencing materially undetectable phenomenon then it is perfectly reasonable (necessary even) to ask "How"?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is no such thing as a vacuum of evidence. There is a great deal of objective evidence that tells us as verified fact that humans have a strong disposition to invent gods.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi master,
themasterdebator writes: Essentially, the problem is you are acting like there are only 2 possible options. The Christian God exists or no God exists. I may be wrong but I thought the specifics being discussed was there was no way to ever know if a certain Christian God existed. Did I explain a way that if a specific Christian God exists Stile will know he exists? yes/no The rest of your post is just preaching your message. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I may be wrong but I thought the specifics being discussed was there was no way to ever know if a certain Christian God existed. Not really. Have you read the OP? This thread is about our ability (or otherwise) to distinguish between faith and delusion. The clue is in the title...........
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So which god am I supposed to believe in? How many gods are you agnostic to? How many are you atheist to? Do you even see the point? Why is unsubstantiated belief in a god exempt from delusion? Why are some people that hear voices termed crazy? But if preachers or George Bush claim to be hearing voices they are exempt from any concerns that they may be delusional? Why does religion get a free pass? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Theodoric,
Theodoric writes: There have been many criticism's of Pascal's Wager since it was first introduced. Logical it fails at first blush. It allows 2 choices: belief in the christian god or not. These are not the only possibilities so at initial glance the wager fails. The only reason I hinted at Pascal's Wager is that I knew it would immediately be thrown into play. But I was not giving an either or situation, with punishment or rewards. I only stated that If the God I believe in exist Stile will know He exists. He had made the statement there was no way ever to know. So give me your best answer: If God exists and you stand before Him to be judged will you know that God exists? If so Stiles statement " but we have no way to ever know", is false. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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