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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN 
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Message 271 of 295 (582383)
09-21-2010 1:35 AM


Percy - serioulsy dude, Have I actualy gone insane? Are these guys offering legitimate points, if so then yes I have gone insane.


NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN 
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Message 272 of 295 (582389)
09-21-2010 3:21 AM


Genesis contradictions?
.

Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.

Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.


NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2424 days)
Posts: 51
Joined: 09-14-2010


Message 273 of 295 (582390)
09-21-2010 3:21 AM


Genesis contradictions?
In Genesis chapter 2 the order of creation seems to be different to that in chapter 1 with the animals being created (2:19) after Adam (2:7). Doesnt the Bible contradict itself here?
by Don Batten

Between the creation of Adam and the creation of Eve, the KJV/AV Bible says (Genesis 2:19) out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air. On the surface, this seems to say that the land beasts and birds were created between Adam and Eve. However, Jewish scholars apparently did not recognize any such conflict with the account in chapter 1, where Adam and Eve were both created after the beasts and birds (Genesis 1:2325). Why is this? Because in Hebrew the precise tense of a verb is determined by the context. It is clear from chapter 1 that the beasts and birds were created before Adam, so Jewish scholars would have understood the verb formed in Genesis 2:19 to mean had formed or having formed. If we translate verse 19 as follows (as one widely used translation1 does), Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field , the apparent disagreement with Genesis 1 disappears completely.

The question also stems from the wrong assumption that the second chapter of Genesis is just a different account of creation to that in chapter 1. It should be evident that chapter 2 is not just another account of creation because chapter 2 says nothing about the creation of the heavens and the earth, the atmosphere, the seas, the land, the sun, the stars, the moon, the sea creatures, etc. Chapter 2 mentions only things directly relevant to the creation of Adam and Eve and their life in the garden God prepared specially for them. Chapter 1 may be understood as creation from Gods perspective; it is the big picture, an overview of the whole. Chapter 2 views the more important aspects from mans perspective.

Genesis 2:4 says, These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. This marks a break with chapter 1. This phraseology next occurs in Genesis 5:1, where it reads This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man.

Generations is a translation of the Hebrew word toledoth, which means origin or record of the origin. It identifies an account or record of events. The phrase was apparently used at the end of each section in Genesis2 identifying the patriarch (Adam, Noah, the sons of Noah, Shem, etc.) to whom it primarily referred, and possibly who was responsible for the record. There are 10 such divisions in Genesis.

Each record was probably originally a stone or clay tablet. There is no person identified with the account of the origin of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:12:4), because it refers primarily to the origin of the whole universe, not any person in particular (Adam and Eve are not mentioned by name, for example). Also, only God knew the events of creation, so God had to reveal this, possibly to Adam who recorded it. Moses, as author of Genesis, acted as a compiler and editor of the various sections, adding explanatory notes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The toledoths acknowledge the sources of the historical records Moses used. This understanding underlines the historical nature of Genesis and its status as eyewitness history, contrary to the defunct documentary (JEDP) hypothesis still taught in many Bible colleges. [Ed. note: for a refutation of this fallacious and anti-Christian theory, see Did Moses really write Genesis?.]

The differences in the toledoth statements of Genesis 2:4 and 5:1 affirm that chapter 1 is the overview the record of the origin of the heavens and earth (2:4)whereas chapter 2 is concerned with Adam and Eve, the detailed account of Adam and Eves creation (5:1,2). The wording of 2:4 also suggests the shift in emphasis: in the first part of the verse it is heavens and earth whereas in the end of the verse it is earth and heaven. Scholars think that the first part of the verse would have been on the end of a clay or stone tablet recording the origin of the universe and the latter part of the verse would have been on the beginning of a second tablet containing the account of events on earth pertaining particularly to Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:4b5:la).

Let us apply this understanding to another objection: some also see a problem with the plants and herbs in Genesis 2:5 and the trees in Genesis 2:9. We have already realized that Genesis 2 focuses on issues of direct import to Adam and Eve, not creation in general. Notice that the plants and herbs are described as of the field in Genesis chapter 2 (compare 1:12) and they needed a man to tend them (2:5). These are clearly cultivated plants, not just plants in general. Also, the trees (2:9) are only the trees planted in the garden, not trees in general.

Genesis was written like many historical accounts with an overview or summary of events leading up to the events of most interest first, followed by a detailed account which often recaps relevant events in the overview in greater detail. Genesis 1, the big picture is clearly concerned with the sequence of events. The events are in chronological sequence, with day 1, day 2, evening and morning, etc. The order of events is not the major concern of Genesis 2. In recapping events they are not necessarily mentioned in chronological order, but in the order which makes most sense to the focus of the account. For example, the animals are mentioned in verse 19, after Adam was created, because it was after Adam was created that he was shown the animals, not that they were created after Adam.

Genesis chapters 1 and 2 are not therefore separate contradictory accounts of creation. Chapter 1 is the big picture and Chapter 2 is a more detailed account of the creation of Adam and Eve and day six of creation.

The final word on this matter, however, should really be given to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. In Matthew chapter 19, verses 4 and 5, the Lord is addressing the subject of marriage, and says: Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Notice how in the very same statement, Jesus refers to both Genesis 1 (verse 27b: male and female created he them) and Genesis 2 (verse 24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh). Obviously, by combining both in this way, He in no way regarded them as separate, contradictory accounts.

Reference and notes
The NIV. Return to text.
Charles Taylor, Who wrote Genesis? Are the toledoths colophons? Journal of Creation 8(2):204211, 1994. Return to text.


NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN 
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Message 274 of 295 (582391)
09-21-2010 3:24 AM


Some more evidence
[Introduction and Inquiry] [Two Creation Accounts -- or One?] [Alleged Points of Contradiction] [An Alternative Explanation] [Extra Objections from Dennis McKinsey and Ebon Musings]

The first two chapters of Genesis are regularly bashed on the noggin for being contrary to modern notions of science; but we won't be discussing that here. Instead, we're going to look at the issue of internal inconsistencies in the two so-called "creation accounts" -- which actually split at verse 2:4; but for brevity we'll refer to the accounts, respectively, as G1 and G2.

We will explore these areas:

Are there actually two creation accounts?
Do these two accounts contradict one another? In answer to this question, we will pursue these replies:
Evidences of unity of authorship in the two accounts. Most cite contradiction in tandem with proofs that G1 and G2 were authored by different parties, in accord with the JEDP hypothesis. In response, it should be noted that it is certainly possible, if not very likely, that both G1 and G2 began as oral accounts that were later put into writing. We will argue that one author was responsible for both written accounts, whatever their original source may have been, thus indicating that any contradiction that would exist would have been intentional, and thus not problematic for inerrantists.
Internal and grammatical solutions. We will show that even if two different people authored G1 and G2, they are not contradictory at all, but complementary.
G1? G2?

A key operational question for this subject may come as a surprise: Are G1 and G2 actually creation accounts? G1 is undoubtedly so, but the classification of G2 is a bit more subtle, and affects somewhat our overall presentation.

The book of Genesis contains several sections that begin with the phrase which we sometimes render, "These are the generations of..." The word "generations" is the Hebrew toledot and has the connotation of a family history or succession. Toledot are given for Adam's line (5:1-6:8), Noah (6:9-9:29), Noah's sons (10:1-11:9), Shem (11:10-26), Terah and Abram (11:27-25:11), and so on -- there are nearly a dozen recurrences of the toledot introduction and method, and one of these, interestingly enough, is Genesis 2:4-4:6.

What does this mean? It means that G2 is not actually a creation account as such, but a "family history" of the first men in creation [Mat.Gen126, 12ff]. It is therefore a point to begin our argument by noting that anyone who reads G2 as a rehash of the creation accounted in G1 is missing the boat from the start.

It is quite unlikely, given the parallel toledot structure, that the author of Genesis is repeating himself (although we do have examples of dual creation accounts -- the former told generally, the latter told more specifically -- in Sumerian and Babylonian literature). Rather, the indication would be that G2 is of an entirely different genre and approach than G1, and that any supposed contradiction between them needs to be understood in that light.

So G2 is not exactly a "creation account" to begin with; and this leads to the next question, of whether a single author is responsible for both. In that regard, the evidence indicates a very close unity between G1 and G2, one that indicates either a single redactor or, more likely, a single author. G1 and G2 are indeed linked by a detectable and obvious pattern:

1:1-2 Introduction
2:4-6 Introduction
1:3-5 Light/Darkness
2:7 Man/Dust
1:6-8 Firmament in Heaven
2:8 Garden on Earth
1:9-13 water and land, plants
2:9-15 plants, water and land
1:14-19 luminaries separated
2:16-17 two trees separated
1:20-3 first creation of animal life
2:18 first concern for man's companionship
1:24-31 creation continues
2:19-22 concern continues
2:1-3, 2:23-4 internal patterns
end of process
divine involvement
separation of Sabbath/separation of couples from parents
blessing of Sabbath/unity of couple
Given these internal clues, we would argue that if any contradiction is found between G1 and G2, it is intentional -- serving a rhetorical or polemical purpose -- and therefore, of no consequence for any supposition of inerrancy. However, we find it more likely that no contradiction does exist between G1 and G2, and we shall see how this is so in our next section.

Points of Order

Typically, critics find two major points of disagreement between G1 and G2. The first of these is rather easy to dispose of:

Gen. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen. 2:4-5 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
The allegation is that whereas G1 has plants made before man, G2 has man made before plants. But it is really rather simple to see that G2 indicates no such thing as is claimed, for the latter specifies that what did not exist yet were plants and herbs "of the field" -- what field?

The Hebrew word here is sadeh, and where it is used of known geographic locations, refers to either a quite limited area of land, and/or a flat place suitable for agriculture, as opposed to the word used in 1:11, "earth", which is 'erets -- a word which has much broader geographic connotations.

See for example:

Gen. 23:12-13: "And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land ['erets], saying, But if thou wilt give it, I pray thee, hear me: I will give thee money for the field [sadeh]; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there."
Ex. 9:22 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land ['erets] of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field [sadeh], throughout the land ['erets] of Egypt."
Lev. 25:2-3, "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land ['erets] which I give you, then shall the land ['erets] keep a sabbath unto the LORD. Six years thou shalt sow thy field [sadeh], and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof...")
A key to understanding what is being described here is that verse 2:5 goes on to explain WHY there were no "plants of the field" -- because a) there was no rain upon the earth, and b) there was no man to work the earth -- the two key elements for agriculture according to the ancient mindset. Thus, what this passage indicates is that there was as yet no organized agriculture, and that makes sense of the verses following, where God specifically plants the garden of Eden and places man to tend to it.

G2 is not indicating that there were no plants created yet at all, but that a special place was set aside for the foundation of agriculture and for plants "of the field" to be developed. (This idea of Eden as a special place set aside shall come into play as we progress.)

But now to the second alleged contradiction:

Gen. 1:24-5 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen. 2:18-20 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Problem? G1 says that animals were created before man; G2 says that man came first, there was a need to designate a helpmeet, then animals were created for the first time...or does it?

For quite some time now the classical solution to this problem has been to do what the NIV (but no other version that I know of) has done, and that is to render the verb in verse 2:19 not as simple past tense, but as a pluperfect, so:

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air.
Thus, it is asserted by various proponents, for example, from Leupold's Exposition of Genesis:

Without any emphasis on the sequence of acts the account here records the making of the various creatures and the bringing of them to man. That in reality they had been made prior to the creation of man is so entirely apparent from chapter one as not to require explanation. But the reminder that God had "molded" them makes obvious His power to bring them to man and so is quite appropriately mentioned here. It would not, in our estimation, be wrong to translate yatsar as a pluperfect in this instance: 'He had molded.' The insistence of the critics upon a plain past is partly the result of the attempt to make chapters one and two clash at as many points as possible.
Likewise, others have noted that the very context of the passages indicate that the pluperfect should be used, and this was the simple solution which I offered in an initial analysis of this verse, in reply to claims of contradiction by Jim Merritt.

However, one critic cited Gensenius' Hebrew Grammar and asserted that "such a reading is NOT POSSIBLE in the Hebrew since (starting after Gen. 2:4) the form of the narrative consists of a number of temporally consecutive clauses, linked by a special marker known as "WAW CONSECUTIVE".

And what is this item? Citing "section 49a, note 1, page 133" of that grammar, they said:

"This name best expresses the prevailing syntactical relation, for by WAW CONSECUTIVE an action is always represented as the direct, or at least temporal CONSEQUENCE of a preceding action."
Thus, they said, "the Genesis 2 narrative literally takes the form of a series of clauses WHICH OCCUR IN A TEMPORALLY ORDERED SEQUENCE" and because the "Hebrew syntax tells us that the actions performed in such a clause are '...the direct, or at least temporal consequence of a preceding action', the only preceding action for which the creation of the beasts and birds can reasonably be considered 'a direct consequence' is God's declaration that He will make a helper for 'the man'. " And that is that -- or is it?

They have certainly reported the text of the grammar correctly, but the "waw consecutive" is rather a more complicated matter, for it does not ALWAYS indicate temporal sequence, as indeed the grammar indicates. There are examples in the OT, NT, and in Egyptian and Assyrian literature of "dischronologized" narratives where items are arranged topically rather than chronologically, and this would justify our own use of the pluperfect for the sake of context; indeed, even commentators that prefer to keep the simple past tense suppose not that there is a contradiction, but that G2 is reporting the order out of sequence purposely in order to stress man's dominion over the created animals.

An older commentary by Keil and Delitsch made this point nicely:

The consecutive arrangement (in Gen. 2:19) may be explained on the supposition that the writer, who was about to describe the relation of man to the beast, went back to the creation, in the simple method of the early Semitic historian, and placed this first instead of making it subordinate; so that our modern style of expressing the same would be "God brought to Adam the beast which He had formed."
A striking example of this style of narrative is in 1 Kings 7:13. The building and completion of the temple we noticed several times in chapter 6, and the last time in connection with the year and month, chapter 6:9,14,37,38. After that, the fact is stated that the royal palace was 13 years in building; and then it is related that Solomon fetched Hiram from Tyre, to make 2 pillars. If we are to understand the (WAW/VAV) consecutive here, Solomon would be made to send for the artist 13 years after the temple was finished. It only expresses the thought, "Hiram, whom Solomon fetched from Tyre. -Also note Judges 2:6.
More than this, there are also various "exceptions" which crop up in Hebrew grammar where the waw consecutive is used. Greenberg, citing the grammar of Jouon, notes [Gree.UE, 37, 168n] that the waw consecutive "sometimes occurs when there is no idea of succession" and that there are places where a pluperfect can be rendered in accordance with a summarizing or recapitulating use of the waw consecutive.

Collins [Coll.WAP] points out that there are cases of unmarked pluperfects in the OT, and that the specific verb in question in this verse itself often warrants a pluperfect translation. Furthermore, another contributor observed:

Gen. 2:19 begins with VaYYiTSeR; the verb "YaTSaR" in the imperfect with a WAW consecutive. Waltke and O'Connor ("Introduction to the Syntax of Biblical Hebrew", pp. 544-546) say that "It (imperfect with a WAW consecutive) shows in Hebrew meanings equivalent to those of the suffix (perfect) conjugation." Earlier, on p. 490, they had already shown that the suffix conjugation can have a pluperfect meaning; later, on p. 552, they show that the imperfect with a WAW consecutive can also have a pluperfect meaning, giving as examples "The Lord *had said* (Hebrew: VaYeDaBBeR) to Moses" (Num. 1:47-49) and "The Lord *had said* (Hebrew: VaYYoMeR) to Moses" (Ex. 4:18-19).
I have not been able to check the accuracy of this cite, but assuming it is true, we have now as many as four indications that the use of the waw consecutive in no way diminishes the argument for the use of the pluperfect. It remains untouched by the critic's argument.

Another Option

So the pluperfect is a more than acceptable reading; but since we are facing the sorts who believe that merely quoting versions is a way to prove that one is correct, and since most versions do use the simple past tense (although as we have noted, even commentators who use it do not necessarily agree that it constitutes actual contradiction), we had better have another line of defense -- and indeed, there is another, one that relates back to our indication of the garden as a special sort of "domestic creation" for man to do his service in.

The naming of the animals was not simply a pre-Linnean classification exercise; it was a demonstration of Adam's dominion over the entirety of nature. The giving of names, in ancient oriental thought, was an exercise of sovereignty and command. One may compare here the idea of bringing subjects before a sovereign, and this will come into play as we develop our argument that assumes reading "formed" as a simple past tense.

Now for recollection purposes, let's once again quote the key passage:

Gen. 2:18-20 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Notice: God "formed" beasts and fowl here -- but he brings before Adam beasts, fowl, and cattle -- the domestic creatures! Where did they come from? The answer, under this proposition, is that they were already in Eden (a place of domestic specialty set aside), and that the "forming" of the beasts and fowl is an act of special creation, giving Adam "samples" of these beasts and fowls from outside Eden for the sake of presenting them to the earth's appointed sovereign. (For after all, why should a king have to wait for his subjects to wander in when he can have them brought to him at once?)

In this passage the author clearly shows awareness of the cattle having already been created in G1, for he does not indicate their creation here, but rather assumes that they don't need to be created. Even without the pluperfect rendering, G1 and G2 demonstrate a perfect consistency.

This explanation is also supported by the chiastic structure of the report of the animals: They are cited in the order, "beasts...fowl...cattle...fowl...beasts" -- suggesting that the report is done by design, not because the writer couldn't see contradiction so plainly in front of him.

Other Objections

Gen. 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.; vs. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is said: "In the first account Adam may eat from any fruit tree; while in the second he may not eat the fruit of all trees."

However, the tree of knowledge is part of a garden not planted until Genesis 2:8. It did not exist at the time Gen. 1:29 is recorded; Gen. 2;17 is therefore updated instructions.

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.; and 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
It is argued that in the first case, man and woman were created together, while they were created separately in the second.

Once again it is simply a matter of establishing the chronology: the last phrase of Gen. 1:27 refers to an event that takes place chronologically much later than the first phrase. We need to keep in mind that we do indeed agree that there are two stories here; but they are complementary (just like dual creation accounts in other ancient sources), and each reflects an intact unit of oral tradition. It is only when we read them as logocentric moderns that we see a problem: The two stories originally were told independently.

Gen. 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.; and 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
It is said that the first account gives men and women dominion, whereas in the second they were "confined" to Eden.

Where does it say that they were "confined" to Eden? All I see here is God getting the dominion process started easy with an initial parcel of land that is ready to go.

Re the use of Elohim in the first account and Yahweh Elohim in the second: for the use of the word elohim, see here.
Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

vs.

Gen. 3:5, 22 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil...And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
It is objected that "In the first creation man is made in the image of God; while in the second that likeness is acquired by learning of good and evil."

For an answer to this, see Chapter 1 of my book The Mormon Defenders. The second part does not say that this is how the "likeness" is acquired.

Gen. 1:2, 9-10 And the earth was without form, and void...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas.

vs.

Gen. 2:4-6 ...in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens...for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth...there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
It is said: "In the first creation account the earth was first covered with water and land did not appear until later. In the second creation account there was no water at first. The earth was dry land and was later watered by a mist."

But the second verse set does not say that "there was no water at first" at all. It says that there was no rain, which is not quite the same thing.

It is said, "Genesis 2:18 makes it plain that the animals had not been created yet since Adam is described as being alone."

"Alone" simply means without a suitable helpmate, which is somewhat curious given that we have no textual justification for assuming that God had left the scene.

It is said, "Genesis chapter 1 states that creation took a full week - seven days, evening and morning. But the second creation story, beginning in 2:4, says this: 'These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.' This verse says 'In the day' - that is, one day, singular - 'that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.' In short, while chapter 1 spreads the creation out over a week, chapter 2 compresses it entirely into one day."

This asserts that "in the day" means on one particular day based solely on the singular form of "day" within that phrase. Indeed?

Thus, we may conclude that Genesis 35:3 makes clear that Jacob experienced his troubles during a single day of distress. Leviticus 14:1-9, likewise makes clear that the rules in effect in the day (14:2) of a leper's cleansing, which take about a week, take merely one day to go through. This is simply misreading of Biblical language.

-JPH

Sources

Coll.WAP - Collins, C. John. "The Wayyiqtol as 'Pluperfect': When and Why". Tyndale Bulletin 46, 1995, 177-40.
Gree.UE - Greenberg, Moshe. Understanding Exodus. Berhman House: 1969.
Mat.Gen126 - Mathews, Kenneth A. Genesis 1-11:26. Broadman and Holman, 1996.


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 Message 276 by purpledawn, posted 09-21-2010 7:42 AM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has not yet responded

NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2424 days)
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Joined: 09-14-2010


Message 275 of 295 (582392)
09-21-2010 3:24 AM


Some more evidence
Hope you enjoyed that, hurry up and read it because I fully expect to be severly reprimanded for posting supporting evidence not completely in my own words.

Okay thats cool, but if you want it in my own words I'm happy to oblidge, but you don't seem to like them much either.

God bless.

Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : same post twice


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 Message 277 by Admin, posted 09-21-2010 9:13 AM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 952 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 276 of 295 (582407)
09-21-2010 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-21-2010 3:24 AM


Re: Some more evidence
We don't debate web pages. That is why we make our point in our own words with quotes that support our position and link to the larger article.

Two Creation Accounts?
Genesis Contradictions?

Now you've provided evidence, but no argument. Try putting the two in the same post.

So what makes these gentlemen more credible than other Biblical scholars other than they agree with you?
Who is JPH?
Don Batten is an agronomist.

Richard Elliott Friedman is a biblical scholar. Even Christian scholars are going to disagree on various issues. Disagreement with your position doesn't make them an atheist.

The articles you pasted cover many issues that have already been done to death and will only waste posts. Basically your position seems to be that there are no contradictions between G1 and G2. You also seem to disagree that they are separate stories or that they are foundational myths.

Contrary to your claims, there are Christian Bible Scholars who have no problem with G1 and G2 as foundational myths or that they aren't actual events.

De Principiis (Book IV) by Origen, one of the early church fathers.

16. ... Now who is there, pray, possessed of understanding, that will regard the statement as appropriate, that the first day, and the second, and the third, in which also both evening and morning are mentioned, existed without sun, and moon, and stars the first day even without a sky? And who is found so ignorant as to suppose that God, as if He had been a husbandman, planted trees in paradise, in Eden towards the east, and a tree of life in it, i.e., a visible and palpable tree of wood, so that anyone eating of it with bodily teeth should obtain life, and, eating again of another tree, should come to the knowledge of good and evil? No one, I think, can doubt that the statement that God walked in the afternoon in paradise, and that Adam lay hid under a tree, is related figuratively in Scripture, that some mystical meaning may be indicated by it. ...

The magic trees and talking snake pretty much tell us that G2 is not an actual event.

The stories were written for different purposes and weren't meant to be conflated as one story. Even the Redactor didn't try to intertwine them. He just wrote a connecting sentence.

I don't feel the stories show an error on the part of the writers.
I feel that looking to these stories for scientific facts makes the searcher in error, not the writings.


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Message 277 of 295 (582414)
09-21-2010 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-21-2010 3:24 AM


Noma Suspended 24 Hours
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Theodoric
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Message 278 of 295 (582419)
09-21-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by purpledawn
09-21-2010 7:42 AM


Where he got info from
Not sure if you have found his source yet.
http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html

JPH is James Patrick Holding

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


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arachnophilia
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Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 279 of 295 (595590)
12-09-2010 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ICANT
08-25-2010 3:33 PM


בָּרָא
ICANT writes:

Created = כרא bara' create where no material is used.

it's typically used for "special" creations, such as mankind, and for unsubstantial (spiritual, etc) things. but to take from this that it represents creatio ex nihilo is absolutely wrong. rather, one needs only understand the origin of the word. look at the other use, for instance, in joshua 17 (verse 15 and 18):

quote:
וַיֹּאמֶר אֲלֵיהֶם יְהוֹשֻׁעַ, אִם-עַם-רַב אַתָּה עֲלֵה לְךָ הַיַּעְרָה, וּבֵרֵאתָ לְךָ שָׁם, בְּאֶרֶץ הַפְּרִזִּי וְהָרְפָאִים: כִּי-אָץ לְךָ, הַר-אֶפְרָיִם

and

quote:
כִּי הַר יִהְיֶה-לָּךְ, כִּי-יַעַר הוּא, וּבֵרֵאתוֹ, וְהָיָה לְךָ תֹּצְאֹתָיו: כִּי-תוֹרִישׁ אֶת-הַכְּנַעֲנִי, כִּי רֶכֶב בַּרְזֶל לוֹ--כִּי חָזָק, הוּא

it certainly doesn't mean that they are going to create the forest from nothing. rather, they are going to destroy it. but it doesn't exactly mean "destruction" either. it means division. they are going to separate the trees from the land. בָּרָא means "creation by means of separation". it's related to words for "break" and "scatter" and "cut" and "polish".

and examination of genesis 1 will bear this out. god divides the heaven from the earth. the land from seas. he sets up divisions of time with markers in the heavens. he divides male from female. etc. none of these are made from nothing -- rather, the are made by separating one from the other. this idea would be extremely important to the ancient hebrews whose entire concept of piety and holiness was based on separation from the surrounding nations.

Genesis 1:21 God created great whales.

so, it's bits like this that make me wonder why you appeal to the hebrew, since you're obviously not reading it. it says,

quote:
וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-הַתַּנִּינִם הַגְּדֹלִים

and god created ha-taninm ha-gadolim. "the great serpents". jewish tradition holds that these are leviyatan and his mate. the "whale" bit is actually sort of funny, because leviyatan happens to be the modern hebrew word for "whale". but as we all know, if you read job, that's not a whale.

The only place anything is said to be bara' created is Genesis 1:21, and 1:27, everything else was just a rearranging of things existing or called forth from things that had existed after their kind or seed that was in the ground.

and genesis 1:1! that's a dependent clause,

quote:
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

"when god began creating the heavens and the earth..." which happens to describe the rest of the coming chapter, until genesis 2:4a,

quote:
אֵלֶּה תוֹלְדוֹת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ, בְּהִבָּרְאָם

"these are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were created." they sort of form bookends to the chapter -- notice the similar phrasing. so all that בְדֵּל going on, (verse 4, 6-7, 14, 18, etc) is covered under that initial בָּרָא. as you point out, most of this is just arrangement. the interesting thing is that heaven and earth are both made by division as well, separating raw ingredients that already existed. remember, since verse 1 is a dependent clause, that "unformed and void" earth, and the water, are what existed at the time god began creating.

If none can be found God is still resting from His כרא bara' creating.

well, god is not currently creating again. but, your phrasing is kind of vague. god is not currently resting, and it is no longer יּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי. it's just that creation is finished. god has since moved onto other tasks.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2010 2:26 PM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 280 of 295 (595593)
12-09-2010 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
08-25-2010 12:49 PM


Re: Chronology
ringo writes:

ICANT writes:

Two different words for different functions.


Even the people at Answers in Genesis don't swallow that one.

Their article says that:

quote:
making a strong distinction between bara and asah in Genesis 12 is as unjustified as making a distinction between create and make in English.

the truth is probably somewhere between the two. they are clearly synonyms, and making a strong distinction is a mistake. but not making any distinction is also a mistake. they are different in flavour -- one can be used to describe the other (as the AiG link points out, as have i in previous threads), but they aren't 100% interchangeable either.

bara tends to be used in particular special cases -- mostly mankind, and for more spiritual concerns. asah and yatsar tend to be used in more down-to-earth ways. neither implies creatio ex nihilo, though if such a concept had existed in the bible, either could probably have been used to describe it.


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
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Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 281 of 295 (595594)
12-09-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ICANT
08-26-2010 12:07 PM


full stop, chapter break.
ICANT writes:

Does Genesis 1:1 say? Yes/No

quote:
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

no! it says, "when god began creating the heaven and the earth..." and then continues into verse two, which describes what the earth was like when god began his creation.

Does Genesis 2:4 say? Yes/No

quote:
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

no! it says, "these are the generations of the heaven and earth, when they were created." period, full stop, begin chapter two, "when yahweh god made earth and heaven..." and continues into verse five, which describes what the earth was like when yahweh first made it.

as explained above, 1:1 and 2:4a are the bookends to chapter 1. tradition has broken the chapter in quite the wrong place. notice, for instance, the complete shift in style between the first half of 2:4 and the second. why does 2:4a says הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ but 2:4b say אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָיִם? why the sudden reversal of order, and the dropping of the article? why does 2:3 only say אֱלֹהִים but יְהוָה suddenly appears in 2:4b?

There was no chapters in the original Biblical Hebrew. Agreed
There was no verses in original Biblical Hebrew. Agreed

yes, and the christian division is exceptionally bad in this case. i suggest finding a hebrew torah, or at least the great jewish translation, the new JPS version.


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 282 of 295 (595597)
12-09-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ICANT
08-30-2010 11:35 AM


יוֹם
ICANT writes:

According to God's definition of a day in Genesis 1:5 day is a light period or the combination of a light period and dark period.

it's important to note that there are several usages of yom, and genesis 1 and 2 use three of them. for instance, your statement here is not quite correct, as the word is actually used twice in genesis 1:5, and to mean two different things:

quote:
וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם, וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה

"day" versus "night", and

quote:
וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם אֶחָד

a day that includes both the night and day above. colloquially, we have the same two usages in modern english. the third pops up in genesis 2:4b:

quote:
בְּיוֹם, עֲשׂוֹת יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים--אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָיִם

"in the day that..." which is an idiomatic way of saying "when..." it doesn't mean a day in the literal sense, just that something i taking place when some other condition is satisfied. it's not durationally specific, just temporally specific. if that makes any sense.


אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 283 of 295 (595598)
12-09-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by jar
09-04-2010 2:48 PM


jar writes:

The first day. The Heaven and the earth get created.

no jar, the earth is created in verse 10 (day three). verse 1 is a dependent clause that describes the rest of the chapter.


אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 227 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 284 of 295 (595601)
12-09-2010 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 12:33 PM


but no cigar
Joseppi writes:

It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English

oh, that's classic, and so true. i've studied enough hebrew to know that by and large, translations are pretty good. the exceptions are few and far between, and all touchy little points like where to break chapters, and what's a dependent clause and such.

but, to say something so right...

Others also don't realize that the LORD God who put the Bible together speaks perfect English and specifies all his terms and meanings.

and then go so wrong... well, that's just amusing.

sadly, regardless of the languages yahweh speaks, the bible was written in hebrew, aramaic, and greek.


אָרַח

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jar
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Message 285 of 295 (595604)
12-09-2010 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by arachnophilia
12-09-2010 12:50 PM


I think I would likely quibble with you slightly. I always see that as all is actually created at the beginning, since the earth is there in the balance of day one. Yes, the first VERSE is preamble and describing the rest of the story, but the first day still has an earth existing.

[uote]1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. [/quote]


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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