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Author Topic:   Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve: Part II
Huntard
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 31 of 75 (572860)
08-08-2010 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 1:07 AM


Re: Doh....!!
ICDESIGN writes:

I am well aware of the religion of evolution.


You might be aware of it, but you don't know anything about it.

The problem is I haven't seen any books that explain the details of where the RLN came from and the probable path of how it randomly and miraculously ended up providing such a clear and obvious purpose.

And you won't find any. The main reason for that being that evolution is not a random process.

Obviously, none of you have a clue either according to your empty posts.

We explained it to you, you just ignored it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ICdesign, posted 08-08-2010 1:07 AM ICdesign has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3867
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 32 of 75 (572862)
08-08-2010 2:06 AM


Closing down unless messages start to be on topic theme
The theme is the intelligent (or lack there of) design of the laryngeal nerve. Messages should tie directly to that theme.

Any Bible references are off-topic.

And I've just realized that this should have gone into the "Intelligent Design" forum - Moving soon.

Adminnemooseus


    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3867
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 33 of 75 (572864)
08-08-2010 2:07 AM


Thread Copied from Biological Evolution Forum
Thread copied here from the Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve: Part II thread in the Biological Evolution forum.

Added by edit:

See my previous message - Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


    
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1556 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 34 of 75 (572867)
08-08-2010 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Huntard
08-08-2010 1:42 AM


Re: Doh....!!
So do you also feel that lottery numbers are not random?

Because of the fact that someone had to put the numbers in the box, and someone also decided what time they would pull out the numbers, and because that person drawing out the numbers is guiding their hand using their brain to maneuver it into the box to select the numbers.

I guess nothing is random by your definition. By all other definitions of how we use the term in ordinary life, it is most definitely random (at least according to the silly theory) but by the newly invented definition that evolutionists use, I guess its not random, because, ....well, because they have decided that if you can point to any ONE aspect of a system that is not random, then the entire sytem is no longer random.

So I suppose all evolutionists think the lottery is unfair.

{Off-topic stuff hidden. The theme is intelligent design of some nerve pathway. - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16041
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 35 of 75 (572869)
08-08-2010 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 1:07 AM


Re: Doh....!!
I am well aware of the religion of evolution.

As a method of pretending to knowledge, that was about as convincing as writing "I am well aware of the musical instrument known as a haddock".

The problem is I haven't seen any books that explain the details of where the RLN came from ...

If you have never looked in a book to find the answer, that is your problem.

And if you won't look at the diagram I supplied you showing the homologue of the RLN in fish, that too is your problem. I am happy to supply you with information, but if you then choose to wallow in self-imposed ignorance, that's no skin off my nose.

... and the probable path of how it randomly and miraculously ended up providing such a clear and obvious purpose.

So you really know nothing about the theory of evolution? Not even the basics?

You poor chap.

Obviously, none of you have a clue either according to your empty posts.

We have given you much more than a clue. Your inability to get a clue, or anything resembling one, remains your problem.


This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3867
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 36 of 75 (572870)
08-08-2010 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
08-08-2010 4:49 AM


Be nice now
Your message in getting on a lot of nerves, one of which is the topic but most of which are mine (or something like that).

Lay off the snark, be nice, and present topic relevant information - Or don't post at all.

Adminnemooseus


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report discussion problems here: No.2
Thread Reopen Requests 2
Topic Proposal Issues

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines

Admin writes:

It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Message 150


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1569 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 37 of 75 (572871)
08-08-2010 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 1:07 AM


The route of the RLN is obvious... but only when you consider evolution
The problem is I haven't seen any books that explain the details of where the RLN came from and the probable path of how it randomly and miraculously ended up providing such a clear and obvious purpose.

Obviously, none of you have a clue either according to your empty posts.

Really? I think many of us have explained this time and time again. Here is my explanation from the previous incarnation of this thread, and it fits perfectly with Dr A's diagram a few post back:

cavediver in reply to Big_Al35 writes:

And it is an incredibly good reason [why the RLN takes its route] and it fits with everything we know concerning evolutionary development. The reason is that the fourth vagus branch has *always* innervated the sixth gill arch and has *always* looped around the sixth aortic branch. Back in the precursors to fish there was a deep symmetry between the vagus nerve branches and their respective gill arches they innervated.

Over the past several hundred million years, evolution has differentiated the gill arches such that the sixth is now the larynx. It is *still* innervated by the fourth vagus branch, the RLN, and the RLN *still* loops around the 6th aortic branch, now known as the ductus arteriosus (a shunt vitally important to the early survival of my youngest son as he was born with TGA.)

The circuitous route of the RLN is explained perfectly by evolutionary development. We do not need other reasons or possibilities for we have THE reason.

The question is, why are *YOU* so scared of the explanation given? Why are *YOU* so pressured into ignoring the world-wide collective knowledge of developmental biology? Why are *YOU* so unable to accept the findings of good science?

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2723 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 38 of 75 (572892)
08-08-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by cavediver
08-08-2010 5:31 AM


Re: The route of the RLN is obvious... but only when you consider evolution
and it fits perfectly with Dr A's diagram a few post back:

First of all, a drawing of the nerve in the fish next to a drawing of the nerve in a human does nothing but prove both have the nerve.
It does nothing, zero, ziltch to show where the nerve originated from or how it ended up with a major purpose when even you Darwinists yourselves admit evolution has no purpose.

The vast majority of the theory of evolution is inferred with no trail of transitional forms to substantiate your outrageous claims.
Evolution is a religion requiring huge leaps of faith.

evolution has differentiated the gill arches such that the sixth is now the larynx

Here is another inference with absolutely no transitional forms that are half gill and half larynx.

Really? I think many of us have explained this time and time again

Yes,really! Wild faith is the only explaining I see taking place.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 39 of 75 (572893)
08-08-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 1:07 AM


Re: Doh....!!
Hi ICDesign,

The problem is I haven't seen any books that explain the details of where the RLN came from...

Correction; you haven't read any books that explain the RLN. You need to actually open them up and read them.

Obviously, none of you have a clue either according to your empty posts.

Just as CD has observed, this has already been covered in the previous RLN thread. From Message 37

Granny writes:

The basic version is that the RLN is a branch of the vagus nerve, the fourth branch. Now trace our evolution back as far as fish and this branch took a path between the gill arches. This took it back behind the sixth gill arch. This is what we see in modern fish.

Now in a fish this isn't a problem. The gill arches are close together and the nerve only covers a short distance - it all lines up, with each nerve branch going through each gill slit in turn. The problem is that in mammals, the "sixth gill arch" is homologous to and has evolved into the ductus arteriosus, a small channel that allows the blood in a developing foetus to bypass the lungs (this duct closes up soon after birth - usually). The RLN has to go around this. That's why it must take so torturous a route around the aortic arch. Here is a diagram showing the nerve in both fish and mammals (sorry it's a bit fuzzy);

Now this makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. If the fourth vagus branch originally went around the far side of the sixth gill arch, then the modern RLN must do the same with regards to the ductus arteriosus. Why? Because one thing that evolution absolutely cannot do is evolve through a stage which, though might have a beneficial effect in a million years time, is lethal in the short term.

For an engineer the problem is simple. The RLN doesn't need to go so far down into the chest. It's unnecessary and it exposes the nerve to a greater risk of injury (just ask any heart surgeon what they think of the of the RLN - the damn thing's in the way!). The obvious solution is to sever the nerve and re-attach it higher up, in the neck, where it needs to be, where it can be much shorter. It doesn't need to go around the ductus arteriosus; the duct serves no function in adults anyway. Problem solved. Here is an illustrative example;

The obvious solution is for the gardener to walk around the tree and back round to the flowerbed from the other side.

Evolution can't do that. Evolution works by mutation and a mutation that broke the nerve would kill the organism. There is no way for the RLN to evolve its way around to the other side of the ductus. (going back to our hapless gardener, it's as though the hose were attached at both ends, stuck around the tree) It's stuck back there, constrained by the limits of what evolution is able to do. So evolution does what it can. It stretches the nerve out, making it longer and longer (equivalent to our gardener lengthening the hose; a poor solution I hope you'll agree). This jury-rigged arrangement is typical of an evolutionary solution, doing what it can, modifying what it is given.

That's what leads to a giraffe with an essential nerve that takes a pointless fifteen foot detour. No engineer would design something wit such an obvious flaw.

That post full enough for you?

Mutate and Survive


"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ICdesign, posted 08-08-2010 1:07 AM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2723 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 40 of 75 (572898)
08-08-2010 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Granny Magda
08-08-2010 11:55 AM


Re: Doh....!!
That post full enough for you?

Full of it is exactly what I was thinking, thank you!

Evolution can't do that. Evolution works by mutation and a mutation that broke the nerve would kill the organism

How would evolution know the organism would die if that nerve broke? Are you telling me evolution has reasoning ability?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Granny Magda, posted 08-08-2010 11:55 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Huntard, posted 08-08-2010 12:19 PM ICdesign has responded
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 Message 44 by Granny Magda, posted 08-08-2010 12:25 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 221 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 41 of 75 (572899)
08-08-2010 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 12:16 PM


Re: Doh....!!
ICDESIGN writes:

How would evolution know the organism would die if that nerve broke? Are you telling me evolution has reasoning ability?


Of course not. But if a random mutation would cause that to happen, leading to the death of the organism, the organism can't reproduce, and thus the mutation isn't propagated.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 42 of 75 (572900)
08-08-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 12:16 PM


some basics about evolution
ICDESIGN writes:

How would evolution know the organism would die if that nerve broke? Are you telling me evolution has reasoning ability?

Evolution does not know anything nor does it have any reasoning ability.

Critters that die though before they can reproduce don't get to pass on their genes.

This is one of the things supported by the evidence and that helps eliminate Special Creation or Intelligent Design as anything worth considering. What we see in the RLN is that existing systems were used and just adapted to new functions even though the result from an intelligence or design perspective is a piss poor, inept design.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12560
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 43 of 75 (572901)
08-08-2010 12:24 PM


Moderator Comment: You can't get blood from a stone.
To those of you trying to explain evolution's view of the laryngeal nerve:

I do not detect any interest in actual discussion from those holding an opposing view, which leaves nothing worth responding to. Either find ways to draw constructive responses from the other side or stop posting. Sorry to put the onus completely on the evolution side, but you can't get blood from a stone.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 44 of 75 (572902)
08-08-2010 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 12:16 PM


Re: Doh....!!
Hi ICD,

Full of it is exactly what I was thinking, thank you!

Thanks. I hope that after responding to a thorough post with a flippant one-liner, you'll not be complaining about posts being too thin on content again.

How would evolution know the organism would die if that nerve broke? Are you telling me evolution has reasoning ability?

Er... no. Huntard has it right. There are some things that evolution is good at doing and some that it is bad at doing. This is the latter.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ICdesign, posted 08-08-2010 12:16 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2734 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 45 of 75 (572923)
08-08-2010 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICdesign
08-08-2010 11:53 AM


Re: The route of the RLN is obvious... but only when you consider evolution
ICDESIGN writes:

First of all, a drawing of the nerve in the fish next to a drawing of the nerve in a human does nothing but prove both have the nerve.

That's not all it proves. It shows that not only do all vertebrates share the nerve, they all have it wired in the same way. It also shows how the route the RLN takes makes the most sense (it is the most direct) in fish. In animals with longer necks it makes less and less sense.

So one can then infer that the RLN appeared first in animals without necks, and then as necks evolved and lengthened, the RLN stayed wired the same way while it was forced to take a longer, more circuitous route.

Of course, alternatively, one could suggest that the Intelligent Designer was lazy. And that he worked out the routing of the RLN for the fish, but then decided to copy-paste this design onto all other vertebrates so that he could get home before rush hour.

ICDESIGN writes:

or how it ended up with a major purpose when even you Darwinists yourselves admit evolution has no purpose.

Who said evolution has no purpose? It has a well-defined function: The increase of fitness within a population. Could that not be a purpose?

If the vagus nerve supported that function, why should it not evolve?

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor


This message is a reply to:
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