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Author Topic:   What is Life?
jar
Member
Posts: 29043
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 226 of 268 (598590)
01-01-2011 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by GDR
01-01-2011 1:22 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
My only point is that you made a statement that was intended to be read as fact for which you have no evidence and is strictly your opinion.

My position which you even quoted was:

quote:
That what we see can be explained without the necessity of some critter meddling and no evidence of even a model for how the meddler might intervene.

Granted that only says that there is no need for the meddler. That therefore there is no need to consider the meddler is not an opinion I think, but rather a conclusion from the evidence that does exist.

And to address the issue of "What is life", as I pointed out back in Message 7, I can't say for sure.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5526
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 227 of 268 (598630)
01-01-2011 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by GDR
01-01-2011 11:40 AM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
GDR writes:
The earth evolved from the basic elements and life evolved to where we are today. That sure looks like directionality to me.

Suppose I go on a random walk, making a random choice at each step. You happen to be watching, though you are unaware that I am making random choices. If you describe my walk, you will very likely describe it as directional.


Jesus was a liberal hippie
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 228 of 268 (598633)
01-01-2011 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by nwr
01-01-2011 3:01 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
nwr writes:

Suppose I go on a random walk, making a random choice at each step. You happen to be watching, though you are unaware that I am making random choices. If you describe my walk, you will very likely describe it as directional.

Sure but it would only be a best guess as I have no concrete evidence as to whether it is random or carefully planned.

Yes, I believe in guided evolution, or at least designed evolution, but I'm not arguing for that. I agree that is just my opinion but so is the view that there is no design or guidance in the evolutionary process.


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Philip Johnson
Junior Member (Idle past 2280 days)
Posts: 24
Joined: 12-29-2010


Message 229 of 268 (598675)
01-01-2011 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by New Cat's Eye
12-30-2010 10:34 AM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
Catholic Scientist writes:

some mutations actually remove a part of the genome.

IF the probability that a mutation adds to the genome is exactly the same as the probability that a mutation removes part of the genome, then there will be no directionality.

However, evolutionists believe that it is more likely that a mutation will add to the genome which gradually results in more information in the genome. Creationists believe that it is more likely that a mutation will remove part of the genome which gradually results in less information in the genome.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-30-2010 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by crashfrog, posted 01-01-2011 7:01 PM Philip Johnson has not yet responded
 Message 231 by jar, posted 01-01-2011 7:05 PM Philip Johnson has not yet responded
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 268 (598677)
01-01-2011 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Philip Johnson
01-01-2011 6:55 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
However, evolutionists believe that it is more likely that a mutation will add to the genome which gradually results in more information in the genome.

No. Evolutionists believe that mutations that add information to the genome are no more or less likely than mutations that remove information from the genome. Evolutionists also believe in natural selection, which tends to preserve those additions or subtractions that are advantageous to the organism.

This has resulted in some organisms gaining information in their genomes over time, and some organisms losing information in their genomes.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29043
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 231 of 268 (598678)
01-01-2011 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Philip Johnson
01-01-2011 6:55 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
However, evolutionists believe that it is more likely that a mutation will add to the genome which gradually results in more information in the genome.

You keep making that assertion yet have never provided any support for that silly assertion.

Creationists believe that it is more likely that a mutation will remove part of the genome which gradually results in less information in the genome.

Even if they do think that, it is something that is demonstrably refuted.

The idea that there was some super genome that has been degraded over time, in addition to just being really really silly, has been refuted time after time.

As a beginning look at the thread Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Philip Johnson, posted 01-01-2011 6:55 PM Philip Johnson has not yet responded

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 232 of 268 (598685)
01-01-2011 7:55 PM


The Mutation Problem
The Mutation Problem: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/problem.html
Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 143 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 233 of 268 (598691)
01-01-2011 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by GDR
01-01-2011 1:01 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
Hi, GDR.

GDR writes:

What is the evidence that evolution guided by natural selection isn't directed?

You've subtly changed "directional" to "directed." As Jar explained upthread, "directional" refers to a sustained direction of change in evolutionary lineages. This we can clearly rule out.

Consider stick insects (a.k.a. phasmids; order Phasmatodea). Primitive insects evolved wings, and basal phasmids retained wings. Some lineages of phasmids, however, lost them. Then, some members of these wingless lineages re-evolved wings.

Such back-and-forth dynamics in the "direction" of evolution is exactly what we mean by "lack of directionality."


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


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GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 234 of 268 (598710)
01-01-2011 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Blue Jay
01-01-2011 8:45 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
Hi Bluejay

You're right in that the subject changed. The original post that I was referring to was this in jar's post 191.

quote:
First, evolution is simply change over time.

Second, it is NOT directed.

Third there is no directionality.

Fourth, what we see is simply what has succeeded.


My argument was with his second point. As far as directionality is concerned then if that is what jar meant then I am fine with that.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5526
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 235 of 268 (598711)
01-01-2011 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by ICdesign
01-01-2011 7:55 PM


Re: The Mutation Problem
ICdesign writes:
The Mutation Problem: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/problem.html

I see mostly assertions, with a lack of supporting argument. It seems to depend on dubious assumptions.

If you think you can support those claims, then start a new thread.


Jesus was a liberal hippie
This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by ICdesign, posted 01-01-2011 7:55 PM ICdesign has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29043
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 236 of 268 (598713)
01-01-2011 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by GDR
01-01-2011 10:45 PM


on directed stuff.
Please see Message 226 where I point out that that is NOT an opinion but rather a conclusion.

quote:
My only point is that you made a statement that was intended to be read as fact for which you have no evidence and is strictly your opinion.

My position which you even quoted was:

quote:
That what we see can be explained without the necessity of some critter meddling and no evidence of even a model for how the meddler might intervene.

Granted that only says that there is no need for the meddler. That therefore there is no need to consider the meddler is not an opinion I think, but rather a conclusion from the evidence that does exist.

And to address the issue of "What is life", as I pointed out back in Message 7, I can't say for sure.



Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by GDR, posted 01-01-2011 10:45 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11446
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 237 of 268 (598859)
01-03-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Philip Johnson
01-01-2011 6:55 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
IF the probability that a mutation adds to the genome is exactly the same as the probability that a mutation removes part of the genome, then there will be no directionality.

Unless the environment is conducive to one direction or another...

When life first emerged, there were all kinds of niches for it to evolve into that allowed for the complexity to increase. If the environment becomes hostile and a whole lot of species go extinct, then there will be a decrease in the amount of complexity.

Its all about the environment in determining which direction will happen. It doesn't have anything to do with the probaility of a mutation adding to the genome.

However, evolutionists believe that it is more likely that a mutation will add to the genome which gradually results in more information in the genome.

No, they don't.

Natural Selection drives the amount of information.


This message is a reply to:
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ICdesign
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 238 of 268 (598878)
01-03-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by nwr
01-01-2011 11:00 PM


Re: The Mutation Problem
nwr writes:

I see mostly assertions, with a lack of supporting argument. It seems to depend on dubious assumptions.
If you think you can support those claims, then start a new thread.


If you can refute any of the information from this paper, please by all means do so. In fact the author invites you to correct any wrong information and send it to him at the beginning of his paper. No need to start a new thread. Go over to the "Problems with evolution" thread and refute it over there if you want to.

The Mutation Problem: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/problem.html


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 Message 235 by nwr, posted 01-01-2011 11:00 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 240 by nwr, posted 01-03-2011 2:01 PM ICdesign has responded
 Message 242 by Taq, posted 01-03-2011 5:23 PM ICdesign has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11446
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 239 of 268 (598880)
01-03-2011 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ICdesign
01-03-2011 1:25 PM


Re: The Mutation Problem
The Mutation Problem: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/problem.html

http://www.wedonotdebatewithlinks.com


This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5526
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 240 of 268 (598883)
01-03-2011 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ICdesign
01-03-2011 1:25 PM


Re: The Mutation Problem
ICdesign writes:
If you can refute any of the information from this paper, please by all means do so.

It isn't a paper; it's a web page.

I'm having trouble finding information in that web page. There's a lot of fluff, but little meat.

As Catholic Scientist indicated, we can't debate links.


Jesus was a liberal hippie
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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