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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1 of 263 (585778)
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


A pretty common assertion that comes up around here is that Revelations 13 describes some coming world wide financial system.

Here is an example of the assertions:

Buz writes:

Biblically/prophetically, this is on tract, corroborating other end time prophecies. Why? Because it is prophesied in the book of Revelation, chapter 13 that all nations, tribes and tongues will, in the apocalyptic end times be required to buy or sell via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead.

I see this as relevant to what's going on. All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation. Christians are forbidden to receive this mark; thus the great tribulation and global persecution of Christians (also prophesied by Jesus and the apostles).

from: Message 46

Here is the passage from Revelation 13:

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


Let's look at this passage.

First, everybody gets the same number and the number does NOT identify the individual but rather "The Beast". There is no mention that this is some substitute for money or goods or any other method of buying or selling.

Second, everybody gets the number. There is nothing in the passage about Christians being forbidden to get the "Mark".

So let's see if there is anyway that this passage could be talking about money, currency, that buying or selling is "via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead"?

As mentioned above, the mark is the same for every person. It does not identify the individual or any account or currency, it just identifies "The Second Beast". There is no way it can be used to effect some transaction.

Second, is there anything that says Christians would not be allowed to have the "Mark"?

Nope. In fact it says that everyone gets the "Mark", not that everyone but Christians get the "Mark'.

So we have two strikes, it is not an identification that could replace currency and it is not something that Christians are not allowed to have.

So maybe it says something about "All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation"?

Nope yet again.

No mention of all global currencies failing, no mention of a global monetary system (which of course has existed as long as humans have traded crap), no mention of money being regulated or secured by a global government or that somehow that would prevent theft or inflation.

Maybe it talks about implants? Shuckie Darn, it says "a mark on his right hand or on his forehead".

Golly Gee Whiz, yet another strike.

So is there any support for the claim that Revelations 13 contains ANY prophecy related to some future monetary system?

Bible A&I please.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : fix title

Edited by jar, : response to the pedantic one

Edited by jar, : still slaying s's


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 263 (585812)
10-09-2010 9:07 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Nonsense of Revelations 13 Economics thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 263 (585816)
10-09-2010 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


Ponder for a moment the kind of person it takes to hold the position that the greatest experts of 2010 don't know what they're talking about when it comes to checking the temperature with a thermometer, but that swineherds and ancient con men were able to predict economic conditions two-thousand years in the future.
This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5516
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 4 of 263 (585817)
10-09-2010 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


It has always seemed to me that Revelations was of the Fantasy genre. So I have never taken it seriously.

And, sure, I have heard sermons explaining the symbolism. The explanations never did fit very well. We are supposed to read from the book, not read into the book.


This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 5563
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(2)
Message 5 of 263 (585820)
10-09-2010 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Nope. In fact it says that everyone gets the "Mark", not that everyone but Christians get the "Mark'.

If everybody has the mark why is the penalty for not having the mark not being able to buy or sell?

jar writes:

As mentioned above, the mark is the same for every person. It does not identify the individual or any account or currency, it just identifies "The Second Beast". There is no way it can be used to effect some transaction.

Lets see what the text says.

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This verse say no man can buy or sell unless:

He has the mark,

OR

The name of the beast,

OR

The number of his name.

Those are 3 different things.

We are not told what the mark or the name is.

We are told what the number is.

jar writes:

no mention of a global monetary system

I don't know if there will be a global monetary system but I do know that everybody in the world will receive the mark, name, or number of the beast or they won't be able to buy or sell.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We are also told that every person that does not worship the image of the beast will be killed.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

jar writes:

So is there any support for the claim that Revelations 13 contains ANY prophecy related to some future monetary system?

It seems that there is a system that to buy or sell you have to have a mark, name, or number in your hand or your forehead.

I am not sure but I think that would qualify as a monetary system.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 6 of 263 (585821)
10-09-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
10-09-2010 9:48 PM


Well, Revelation is a classic example of the style called Apocalyptic Literature. But it appears to be talking about Rome and meant for people of the day. The big thing is that it is filled with examples of unfulfilled prophecy and so many people that don't understand that it is only talking about the past try to squint really hard to see if they can it fit into the future.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 7 of 263 (585822)
10-09-2010 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
10-09-2010 10:30 PM


Re: Mark
ICANT writes:

It seems that there is a system that to buy or sell you have to have a mark, name, or number in your hand or your forehead.

I am not sure but I think that would qualify as a monetary system.

On, not in.

And just how do you have a monetary system that does not indicate an individual, an item or an amount?

AbE: Missed this.

ICANT writes:

If everybody has the mark why is the penalty for not having the mark not being able to buy or sell?

Yup. It says everybody has the mark.

It also says that you can't buy or sell without it.

Still no mention that Christians would not have the Mark.

Edited by jar, : missed one question.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 263 (585824)
10-09-2010 10:45 PM


Nonsense
Sorry, this whole thing is nonsense.

If you want to read fiction, Shakespeare is far better.

Tolstoy's War and Peace is better! (And we all know how bad that is.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 9 of 263 (585825)
10-09-2010 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coyote
10-09-2010 10:45 PM


Re: Nonsense
Of course it is nonsense, but I'll admit if someone can show me how a mark that is exactly the same for every person and every transaction can be a monetary system I'll be impressed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 5563
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 10 of 263 (585826)
10-09-2010 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
10-09-2010 10:34 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

On, not in.

Not according to the text.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

That verse says in not on.

jar writes:

And just how do you have a monetary system that does not indicate an individual, an item or an amount?

Simple.

It makes no difference what form of currency you have if you can't buy anything with it.

It makes no difference what product you have if you can't sell it.

So if you can't buy or sell what good would currency of any kind be?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 10:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 11 of 263 (585827)
10-09-2010 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
10-09-2010 10:59 PM


Re: Mark
ICANT writes:

jar writes:

And just how do you have a monetary system that does not indicate an individual, an item or an amount?

Simple.

It makes no difference what form of currency you have if you can't buy anything with it.

It makes no difference what product you have if you can't sell it.

So if you can't buy or sell what good would currency of any kind be?

Thank you for proving that the assertion it is a monetary system is total nonsense.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 5563
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 12 of 263 (585828)
10-09-2010 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
10-09-2010 10:34 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Yup. It says everybody has the mark.

Everybody does not exist in the Greek text.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

He causeth small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand, regardless of status in life.

jar writes:

Still no mention that Christians would not have the Mark.

Do you believe a Christian would receive the mark and worship the beast?

I don't know any as they would die first.

Especially knowing that they had missed the first flight out.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 5563
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 13 of 263 (585833)
10-09-2010 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
10-09-2010 11:04 PM


Re: Mark
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Thank you for proving that the assertion it is a monetary system is total nonsense.

Where did I make such an assertion?

I did say:

ICANT writes:

I am not sure but I think that would qualify as a monetary system.

A monetary system is one in which the government provides a mechanism for buying and selling comodities.

The beast does provide a mechanism for buying and selling.

If you have the mark, name, or number you will be able to buy or sell if you don't you will not be able to buy or sell.

Thus I still think it is a monetary system.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 11:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 2157
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 14 of 263 (585843)
10-10-2010 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
10-09-2010 9:47 PM


Good Ol' Crashfrog
crashfrog writes:

Ponder for a moment the kind of person it takes to hold the position that the greatest experts of 2010 don't know what they're talking about when it comes to checking the temperature with a thermometer, but that swineherds and ancient con men were able to predict economic conditions two-thousand years in the future.
Ponder for a moment the kind of person it takes to hold the position that the greatest experts of 2010 don't know what they're talking about when it comes to checking the temperature with a thermometer, but that swineherds and ancient con men were able to predict economic conditions two-thousand years in the future.

This place is as good for information as Pharyngula or Panda's Thumb and as good for a chuckle as cracked.com.

Thanks for sharing.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
ó Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Itís us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 350 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 15 of 263 (585844)
10-10-2010 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
10-09-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Mark
ICANT writes:

If you have the mark, name, or number you will be able to buy or sell if you don't you will not be able to buy or sell.

So kinda like a retailer permit or wholesaler license?

Edited by Omnivorous, : Buz-->ICANT


Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio

Real things always push back.
-William James


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