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Author Topic:   Can I disprove Macro-Evolution
frako
Member
Posts: 2773
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 196 of 238 (591176)
11-12-2010 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dawn Bertot
11-12-2010 9:56 AM


Re: DNA
Feel free to clown around, I would however, suggest that you spend your time meeting his demand, which you have to this point NOT demonstrated

I demonstrated macro evoution that happened in recorded history and he said well those mice are different species of mice but still mice, and i asked him 5 times how much change would a mouse need to not be a mouse anymore i got no anwser jet when he provides one i can find a different example.

It is hard to argue whit someone that uses flawed logic as he stated "i have no problem whit those mice being diferent species but they are still mice" As i recall macro evolution is above the species level so if they are different species than macro happened. The fact that they are still mouse like has nothing to do whit it. But if he can provide me whit the amount of change he would consider macro evolution then i will find some other example. Though whitout knowlage what he wants i cannot do that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 9:56 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 10:42 AM frako has responded
 Message 199 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 10:42 AM frako has not yet responded
 Message 205 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 12:46 PM frako has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 197 of 238 (591178)
11-12-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Dawn Bertot
11-12-2010 2:12 AM


Maybe Dawn wil answer frako's question
Since ICANT cannot or will not answer frako's question, maybe you will. Since you are so impressed with ICANT's intellectual prowess, can you explain why he refuses?

How about addressing this.

Frako writes:

How much of a difference in your mind must 2 species have to be called 2 species and not the same species? The minimum difference please


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 2:12 AM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 198 of 238 (591179)
11-12-2010 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by frako
11-12-2010 10:25 AM


Re: DNA
I have advised him twice that generic terms like "mouse" are useless in scientific classification, and mean nothing in the current debate.

My posts have been ignored. As usual.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by frako, posted 11-12-2010 10:25 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by frako, posted 11-12-2010 11:00 AM Coyote has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 199 of 238 (591180)
11-12-2010 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by frako
11-12-2010 10:25 AM


Re: DNA
The problem is that Dawn Bertot and JRTjr and ICANT are happily leading you and others down those oh so attractive rabbit holes.

The topic is NOT whether Macro-Evolution happened, it is an assertion that they can disprove Macro-evolution.

It is their assertion that it did not happen, and until they provide a model that better explains what is seen than the current model, they have failed.

Stop letting them change the subject and lead you guys astray.

It is up to them to provide convincing evidence that Macro-Evolution did not happen.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by frako, posted 11-12-2010 10:25 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2010 10:48 AM jar has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 200 of 238 (591182)
11-12-2010 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by jar
11-12-2010 10:42 AM


Thread should be closed anyway
Since JrTjr has not participated in the thread since his opening post this thread should be closed. If the starter of the thread is not able to support his own ideas then there should be no continuing discussion.

You are correct that DB and ICANT have dragged this thread off topic and have done nothing but lead us down rabbit holes. If they want to continue with their inane, off topic posts then they should be forced to open a new thread.

I would suggest ICANT do it because I doubt DB is going to get any more topics approved.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by jar, posted 11-12-2010 10:42 AM jar has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2773
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 201 of 238 (591185)
11-12-2010 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Coyote
11-12-2010 10:42 AM


Re: DNA
i know i would poste the latin name of that new mouse and the house mouse but he would still say they are still mice
This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2010 10:42 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 238 (591189)
11-12-2010 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Dawn Bertot
11-12-2010 2:12 AM


Re: DNA
I have read the entire thread up to 184, excellent display of logic, ICANT, you can see them squirming.

Can you briefly summarize what you believe are his best points?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 2:12 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 12:50 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16028
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 203 of 238 (591198)
11-12-2010 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Dawn Bertot
11-12-2010 10:06 AM


Re: DNA
It really bothers you when someone disagrees with A position, even when you are not being addressed directly, doesnt it?

Beign wrong on any position is really not an option for you is it?

Perhaps some anger management classes or courses would be appropriate for such tantrums

Just a suggestion however

Better let you get back to your task, have fun

That was incoherent, but I believe you intended to be insulting.

You're not very good at that, either, are you?

I wonder what you are good at? I suppose with the right armature a taxidermist might make you into a passable hatstand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 10:06 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 1:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

ok boy
Member (Idle past 2524 days)
Posts: 12
Joined: 05-22-2006


Message 204 of 238 (591200)
11-12-2010 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ICANT
11-11-2010 12:13 PM


definition of 'macro evolution'
hi again ICANT, and thank you for the welcome.

ICANT writes:


Were they both hogs? Yes.

Are they classified as different species? Yes, go figure.

To me they are just a different variety of the same thing.

cool, we agree that new species can come into existence.

it seems that we only differ in our interpretation of the definition provided in the op.

OP writes:

change that occurs at or above the level of species

now to me, a change that occurs 'at the level of species' would be an instance of speciation, but you don't seem to share that view. could you expand on what you think a change 'at the level of species' would be?

(eta: by the way, i know you're heavily outnumbered in this thread, so no rush)

Edited by ok boy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 12:13 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 205 of 238 (591206)
11-12-2010 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by frako
11-12-2010 10:25 AM


Re: DNA
It is hard to argue whit someone that uses flawed logic as he stated "i have no problem whit those mice being diferent species but they are still mice" As i recall macro evolution is above the species level so if they are different species than macro happened. The fact that they are still mouse like has nothing to do whit it.

It has everything to do with it. The point is that those mice, regardless of thier appearance are just still mice.

They dont breed and cannot breed with anything else to be anything else, regardless of the changes they maike themselves within the species

One thing becoming another from a particular species is the assumption of Macro-evolutioin and is what needs to be demonstrated, in the "above the species" application

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by frako, posted 11-12-2010 10:25 AM frako has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 206 of 238 (591207)
11-12-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
11-12-2010 11:19 AM


Re: Summary?????
Can you briefly summarize what you believe are his best points?

When we reach that point I will be happy to do so

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 11-12-2010 11:19 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 207 of 238 (591210)
11-12-2010 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Dr Adequate
11-12-2010 12:10 PM


Re: DNA
That was incoherent, but I believe you intended to be insulting.

You're not very good at that, either, are you?

I wonder what you are good at? I suppose with the right armature a taxidermist might make you into a passable hatstand.

Fortunately Ive been discussing issues like these much longer than yourself . Part of that experience is learning when a person actually has answers to questions and can formulate rational responses, neither of which, seem to be a part of you abilities or your agendas

When you get backed against the wall, you start to cry fowl, in the hopes people will get distracted by the real fact, that you are not acting responsible and cannot act or respond in any real fashion

DA, your wasting valuable time that should be invested in rebutals that make sense

Remember DA, your audience is watching your behavior

I assume you are actually older than say, 20 years of age, so you should have learned this simple mature point by now. Perhaps I am wrong and you are still a teenage testosterone fueled boy. Are you still just a boy DA?

Dawn Bertot

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2010 12:10 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2010 1:23 PM Dawn Bertot has responded
 Message 211 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2010 1:24 PM Dawn Bertot has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 208 of 238 (591212)
11-12-2010 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by frako
11-11-2010 2:28 PM


Re: Macro-Evolution
Hi frako,

frako writes:

will this help

Well it doesn't answer the question:

"What is the common ancestor of chimps and humans?"

frako writes:

Well no you can get some other information from this as well.

Human like sculls whit almost the same brain capacity or at least volume.
No other modern sculls at those times they only arrive late.
A similarety of the the newer sculls and older sculls implying an evolutionary process

The volume of brain is determined by the size of the body.

You do realize that the Neanderthals had a larger brain than modern mankind. So what is your point?

When googling "When did modern man appear on Earth?" I get a lot of answers like the one found Here

It is believed that man developed from the same general grouping of animals as monkeys and apes, however, the ancestors of the human race were a separate group of animals which walked erect on two feet. It is thought that man, with his present build, was established by 25,000 B.C. The Neanderthal Man and Cro-Magnon Man, who might very well have led to the development of modern humans, had already died out by this time.
emphasis mine

But that is not the way it has been presented here. At EvC it is presented as a fact.

As I said the only thing the skulls verify is that creatures with those skulls existed at one time.

There is nothing about those skulls that verify that 'Macro-Evolution' has occured.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by frako, posted 11-11-2010 2:28 PM frako has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 209 of 238 (591213)
11-12-2010 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ICANT
11-11-2010 6:04 PM


"Still mice"
I have no problem with your non breeding mice being a different species of mice.

But they are still mice.

OK, if changes at the species level are "still mice" then what do you make of the six figures in the upper left half of the figure below? They are a similar level of change to the "mice" you are so fond of. Do you agree that they are all the same?

Here is a better view of one of the early specimens:

So what do you think? Are they all still mice?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2010 6:04 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 1:37 PM Coyote has responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 210 of 238 (591215)
11-12-2010 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Dawn Bertot
11-12-2010 1:05 PM


Enough is enough
I am sure a lot of us would appreciate if you can not post something substantive to not bother posting at all.

Posts like this make you look like you are incapable of comprehending the issue and the argument.

I assume you are actually older than say, 20 years of age, so you should have learned this simple mature point by now. Perhaps I am wrong and you are still a teenage testosterone fueled boy. Are you still just a boy DA?

There is no excuse or reason for this being posted. I hope the admins deal with this swiftly and severely.

You repeatedly make posts with no substance. The old "baffle them with bullshit routine".

You make extraordinary claims about your intelligence and debating skills. Well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and to date you have shown no evidence to back up your claims.

If you cannot make substantive posts and if you cannot argue the position not the person, then do as all a favor and quit wasting our time.

Fortunately Ive been discussing issues like these much longer than yourself . Part of that experience is learning when a person actually has answers to questions and can formulate rational responses, neither of which, seem to be a part of you abilities or your agendas

I think most people here are thinking "are you fucking serious".

Oh by the way why would Dr. A cry chicken or sparrow or eagle?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 1:05 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-12-2010 1:31 PM Theodoric has responded

  
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