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Author Topic:   Another example of right wing evil
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 140 of 247 (623063)
07-08-2011 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Artemis Entreri
07-07-2011 8:11 PM


Classical Homosexuality
If you think it is an integral part then you are a revisionist.
Let's hear from some of those revisionists, shall we? Revisionists like Aristotle, Plutarch, Xenophon ...
Xenophon mentions the varying attitudes to homosexuality in the various Greek nations:
It seems to me that something must also be said about the love of boys; for this too has a bearing on education. The other Greeks either do as the Boeotians do, where man and boy are joined as couples and live together, or like the Eleans, who get to enjoy the charms of boys by making them grateful; there are also those who wholly prevent boy-lovers from conversing with boys. [...] In most of the Greek cities, the laws do not oppose mens' desire for boys. (Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians)
Plutarch attributes Theban homosexuality to "deliberate policies" by the lawgivers:
The Thebans’ practice of intimacy with lovers, to speak more generally, did not have its origin, as the poets say, in the passion of Laius. Rather the practice grew out of deliberate policies which the lawgivers adopted in order to temper and soften the Thebans’ fiery and violent nature right from childhood. (Plutarch, Life of Pelopidas)
Aristotle attributes homosexuality in Crete to the founder of their constitution:
The lawgiver gave much thought to the benefits of moderation in eating and also to the isolation of women, so that they not have many children. To this end he devised intercourse with males. (Aristotle, The Politics 2.10)
Ephorus of Cyme discusses the unique Cretan practice of ritual mock-abduction:
They have a unique custom with regard to love affairs. For they do not win their boy-friends through persuasion, but through abduction. The lover warns the boy's friends and family three or more days in advance that he is going to carry out the abduction. It is most shameful for them to hide the boy or not allow him to travel the appointed road, as this is viewed as a confession that the boy is unworthy of such a lover. When they meet him, if the abductor is a man equal to or surpassing the social standing, and all else, of the boy, they only fight and pursue him a bit, enough to fulfill what is customary, and after that they turn the boy over and enjoy the occasion. [...] For those who are good-looking and from illustrious families it is a disgrace not to get a lover, since it is assumed that they suffer this because of their manner of living. (Ephorus of Cyme, quoted in Strabo's Geography)
Athaneus discusses why homosexuality was "fashionable" in the "cities with the best laws":
And many men, overall, prefer love with boys to love with females. In the very cities of Greece that have the best laws by comparison with others, this is the mode of behavior that is fashionable. [...] Hieronymus the Aristotelian says that love with boys was fashionable because several tyrannies had been overturned by young men in their prime, joined together as comrades in mutual sympathy. In his boy-friend’s presence, a lover would go through any suffering rather than have the boy think him a coward. This was demonstrated in practice by the Sacred Band, formed by Epaminondas at Thebes; by the Peisistratid assassination, the work of Harmodius and Aristogeiton; and at Acragas in Sicily by the story of Chariton and Melanippus. (Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists)
Plutarch on Spartan customs (note the rare reference to lesbianism):
Lovers shared in the reputation of their boyfriends, whether good or bad. And it is said that once, when a boy uttered a dishonorable sound in battle, his lover was fined by the magistrates. Love was so esteemed among them that girls also became the erotic objects of noble women. But rivalries were not permitted: rather men who had fallen in love with the same boys made it an opportunity to forge a friendship amongst themselves, and they continued to work together to make their beloved the best he could be. (Plutarch, Lycurgus)
More Plutarch:
And among you Thebans, Pemptides, is it not usual for the lover to give his boy-love a complete suit of armor when he is enrolled among the men? [...] And not only are the most warlike nations most amorous, as the Boeotians the Lacedaemonians and the Cretans, but also of the old heroes, who were more amorous than Meleager, Achilles, Aristomenes, Cimon, and Epaminondas. Why, Epaminondas had as his boy-loves Asopichus and Cephisodorus, the latter of whom fell with him at Mantinea, and is buried near him. (Plutarch, On Love)
Plato in his Republic famously argued for an all-gay military:
And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their beloved, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonor, and emulating one another in honor; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger? (Plato, The Republic)
Plato's writing is said to be the inspiration for the Sacred Band of Thebes, which, by defeating the Spartans at Leuctra, laid the basis for Theban military dominance. Here's Plutarch on the Sacred Band:
A pleasant saying of Pammenes is current, that Homer's Nestor was not well skilled in ordering an army, when he advised the Greeks to rank tribe and tribe, and family and family together, that: "So tribe might tribe, and kinsmen kinsmen aid," but that he should have joined lovers and their beloved. For men of the same tribe or family little value one another when dangers press; but a band cemented by friendship grounded upon love is never to be broken, and invincible; since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another. Nor can that be wondered at since they have more regard for their absent lovers than for others present; as in the instance of the man who, when his enemy was going to kill him, earnestly requested him to run him through the breast, that his lover might not blush to see him wounded in the back. It is a tradition likewise that Iolaus, who assisted Hercules in his labors and fought at his side, was beloved of him; and Aristotle observes that, even in his time, lovers plighted their faith at Iolaus's tomb. It is likely, therefore, that this band was called sacred on this account; as Plato calls a lover a divine friend. It is stated that it was never beaten till the battle at Chaeronea: and when Philip, after the fight, took a view of the slain, and came to the place where the three hundred that fought his phalanx lay dead together, he wondered, and understanding that it was the band of lovers, he shed tears and said, "Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything that was base." (Plutarch, Pelopidas)
With all these revisionist primary sources for Greek history misrepresenting the issue, it's lucky we have an expert like you to tell us what was really going on two millennia ago. Otherwise we might get all confused.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-07-2011 8:11 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-08-2011 8:01 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 164 of 247 (623263)
07-08-2011 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Artemis Entreri
07-08-2011 8:01 AM


Classical Homosexuality
Men and boys!?! Sounds like pedophiles rather than homosexuals.
Grown men and adolescents, yes. Which I believe technically made them ephebophiles. Relationships between two grown men were usually seen as rather ridiculous unless they had originally begun in that way ("He who lifted the calf", they said, "can carry the bull.")
Are somehow claiming the Greek example as reason that homosexuals are pedophiles?
No.
Sounded like an advert for NAMBLA.
It's what happened. I did not invite you to like it.
I never claimed being an expert on Greeks, nor did I really say anything about the Greeks.
Aren't the ancient Greeks part of the classical era any more?
Many of the quotes simply mentioned lovers (the Plato quotes for example), which is ambiguous.
Hello? The Plato quote says (last sentence): "Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger?" I.e. they were both male.
Is there any other passage you need my help in reading?
I will not make base assumptions from quotes, a reason I am not a fan of bible quotes (most of them are taken out of context). It’s hard to see how Greek pedophilia ties into all of this.
I have given you references for every quotation. If you don't think they mean what they plainly do mean, you are free to look up the context for yourself.
Let me see all the Roman cases Taz mentioned as well.
In Rome although homosexuality was accepted it was not institutionalized as it was in so many of the Greek states. I could give you innumerable examples of gay relationships between specific prominent Romans, but I would not describe it as integral to their system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-08-2011 8:01 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 165 of 247 (623264)
07-08-2011 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Coyote
07-08-2011 10:52 PM


Re: Why The Fuss?
I believe in working for my living and paying my own way.
It's nice to know that you have some socialist principles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Coyote, posted 07-08-2011 10:52 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Coyote, posted 07-08-2011 11:38 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 188 of 247 (623389)
07-09-2011 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Coyote
07-09-2011 10:28 PM


Re: Why The Fuss?
What in all of this gives someone the right to take at the point of a gun what someone else earns, no matter how it is earned?
(1) In Paris Hilton's case, surely it is questionable whether she has in fact earned it. By doing what?
(2) That would be an argument to abolish all taxation, not just taxation for purposes you disapprove of. The government takes your money, at the point of this imaginary gun, to fund (for example) the Army. Should this practice be abolished?
What I take from your post is that progressives are champions at class envy.
Do you yourself think that Paris Hilton should pay the same amount of tax that you do? If your answer is "no", is that a form of "class envy"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2011 10:28 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 191 of 247 (623393)
07-10-2011 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Coyote
07-09-2011 11:59 PM


Re: "From each according to his ability" and other nonsense
You two seem to be promoting the policy that the state has the right to take anything it wants from the individual based on it's presumed "need."
It is a short distance from "anything" to "everything" ala "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)." Who decides?
I had thought it was the voters.
And yes, sometimes the US government has indeed taken everything. For example, conscripts who died in war. Everything was taken from them except honor, which they could not actively enjoy, being dead.
At the point where a society ends up with more takers than makers, what is to keep the makers from leaving? And if the makers leave, who then will support the takers in the style in which they would like to become accustomed? (Recall the parable of the goose?)
What we are seeing is Bread and Circuses (q.v.).
The downward spiral we see promoted by many to "tax the rich" is viable only as long as we have "the rich." When you destroy "the rich" or drive them away, who then will support your failed policies?
OMG, what will happen when we end up at the bottom of the slippery slope? It hardly seems imminent. Even Paris Hilton has not yet fled these shores into tax exile, thus depriving us of ... er ... those things that she does. Y'know, those things. The things.
We are in no danger of "destroying the rich". Some figures found with a cursory Google search:
Mr. Greenstein’s organization will release a report today showing that for Americans in the middle, the share of income taken by federal taxes has been essentially unchanged across four decades. By comparison, it has fallen by half for those at the very top of the income ladder.
[...]
The top 1 percent received 21.8 percent of all reported income in 2005, up significantly from 19.8 percent the year before and more than double their share of income in 1980. The peak was in 1928, when the top 1 percent reported 23.9 percent of all income.
The top tenth of a percent and top one-hundredth of a percent recorded even bigger gains in 2005 over the previous year. Their incomes soared by about a fifth in one year, largely because of the rising stock market and increased business profits.
The top tenth of a percent reported an average income of $5.6 million, up $908,000, while the top one-hundredth of a percent had an average income of $25.7 million, up nearly $4.4 million in one year.
If I expressed a desire that I should be "destroyed" like that, would that count as "class envy"?
Heck, I'd settle for a modest $1 million increase in my annual income.
I'll find some more recent figures if you want to make an issue out of it. But I think you'll find that the rich have still not been "destroyed", what with the renewal of the Bush tax breaks and all.
In a broader sense: Why should I work to support you?
As far as I know, you don't.
Incidentally, you are an archeologist, aren't you? I hope all of your work is funded by private individuals who have freely decided that your work is worth spending their money on.
ps. John Galt was right.
You are free to withdraw your labor; though I think that the effect would be more marked if you were not an archeologist.
---
Now, I've answered your questions, how about you answer mine?
Do you think that Paris Hilton should pay the same in tax that you do? If your answer is "no", do you count that as "class envy"?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Coyote, posted 07-09-2011 11:59 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Coyote, posted 07-10-2011 12:25 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 193 of 247 (623395)
07-10-2011 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Coyote
07-10-2011 12:25 AM


Re: "From each according to his ability" and other nonsense
Can you think of any reason why some people should pay a higher rate than others that does not involve class envy or Bread and Circuses?
Marginal utility.
And do you not agree that Marx and his "From each according to his ability" nonsense is totally discredited? Or is that what you are pushing?
I am not a Marxist, if that's what you mean.
---
Now, perhaps you could answer my question.
Do you think that Paris Hilton should pay the same in tax that you do? If your answer is "no", do you count that as "class envy"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Coyote, posted 07-10-2011 12:25 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 196 of 247 (623424)
07-10-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Straggler
07-10-2011 6:48 AM


Joining The Dots
This thread seems to have changed direction since I last looked. It was about laws pertaining to homosexuality in Tennessee. Now it seems to be about how much Paris Hilton's tax payments are subsidising Coyote's lifestyle.
Look, it's simple. Paris Hilton's dogs were eaten by a coyote. There are coyotes in Tennessee. And Tennessee Williams was homosexual. Williams wrote "Cat On A Hot Tin Roof", which was made into a film starring Elizabeth Taylor, who appeared with Elizabeth Perkins in 1994's "The Flintstones"; and Elizabeth Perkins starred in "He Said She Said" with Kevin Bacon.
If I also tell you that coyotes eat bacon, you should see how it all fits together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Straggler, posted 07-10-2011 6:48 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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