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Author Topic:   The Blind Watchmaker?
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 54 (451547)
01-28-2008 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
01-26-2008 12:43 PM


why did he use a watch to represent complex design as opposed to a quad-core microprocessor, for instance?
Off the top of my head, probably because it was 1831 and they didn't exist. A watch was pretty sophisticated back then.
Paley’s argument is that the watch he talks of is evidence of complex design, which in turn requires an intelligent designer. Based on his argument, there seems no reason why Stone Age man should not have designed the watch of which he talks. Wasn’t Stone Age man as intelligent as his descendants? Wouldn’t he have had use for a sophisticated timepiece?
I believe that man thousands of years was likely just as intelligent as man is now. The only difference being that knowledge begets knowledge, and we build off of previous inventions. If no one invented the wheel, a car thousands of years later may never have been designed.
In reverse, some historians allege that we have possibly lost a great deal of knowledge deriving from the ancients, particularly when it comes to celestial navigation with its complex azimuths and whatnot, when the library at Alexandria was destroyed.
But more along the lines of uncovering teleology in nature, if Paley instantly recognizes a watch as being intelligently, but also asserts that nature is a treasure-trove of evidence concerning God's intervention, then wouldn't he have been just as likely to look at that stone and determine that it was made by a cosmic artificer?
That often is the underlying problem with using arguments like that. For instance, the toaster in a forest scenario commits a flaw. If intelligence is so apparent, then wouldn't we be just as likely to instantly see the intent in the forest itself as readily apparent as the toaster?
If we look at the fossil record, we see no evidence of homo sapiens walking the planet with the dinosaurs.
I would actually have to disagree given the amount of artifacts and testimonies. It doesn't verify it beyond doubt, but I think there is some credence that, while it may have been a rare occurrence, it still happened on occasion.
I suggest that Paley’s analogy points not to intelligent design, as he intended, but unwittingly to the process of evolution via natural selection.
Although one could certainly apply an evolutionary concept to the idea of knowledge begetting knowledge, the fact still remains that it took an intelligent being to create these items. It was not through capriciousness that we arrived at a sharpened flintstone, nor was it capriciousness that we arrived at a plasma screen tv.
Where I personally see design in nature comes as an aggregate and not necessarily in any specific material. For instance, the penis and the vagina certainly, with all its contrivances, appears to have been specifically designed. I have heard of some lofty reasons about how such a thing could have arisen by chance X natural selection, but it sounds like an ad hoc answer to me.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 01-26-2008 12:43 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 01-28-2008 1:42 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 31 by dogrelata, posted 01-28-2008 6:45 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 32 by bluegenes, posted 01-28-2008 8:07 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 54 (451799)
01-28-2008 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taz
01-28-2008 1:42 AM


Designer
Ok, who designed the designer?
From a purely detached, scientific approach? I don't know. My religious and philosophical side says that nothing designed the designer.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 01-28-2008 1:42 AM Taz has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 54 (452918)
01-31-2008 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by dogrelata
01-28-2008 6:45 AM


Given the several billion years that have elapsed since that earlier design, what has the designer learned that could be applied to a new design if they were to start all over again? What ”need’ did the design fulfill?
Asking me, a mortal man, what motivation God had for designing anything is an eternally difficult question. I could only begin to speculate.
I suppose it may be like wondering what "need" is fulfilled in painting. Aside from deriving pleasure through the creation of his/her painting, what need has just been fulfilled? Thoughts spilled out on a canvas is what art is, and even that description falls painfully short. How much more would I suppose of God if He is also the Artist?
I’m no biologist, but it’s always struck me that the positioning of the vagina on female homo sapiens only really makes sense if you view it as an evolved version of what is found on four-legged mammals. Indeed, when we observe the design features favoured by intelligent design, they invariably produce a flush, vertically positioned receptacle, which receives at right angles to itself - the ubiquitous wall socket and power plug being an obvious case in point.
The problem is that we see zero evidence of nature tinkering around with penises and vaginas. Indeed, how would a species have perpetuated by trial and error? Besides there not being any physical evidence of nature playing around with design, we see that everything must have been in an operable order from the start in order for said specie to have even had the chance to evolve.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dogrelata, posted 01-28-2008 6:45 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by dogrelata, posted 02-01-2008 5:44 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 50 by dogrelata, posted 02-03-2008 4:05 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 54 (453128)
02-01-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by dogrelata
02-01-2008 5:44 AM


Designing the Designer
if you are telling me that our understanding of the supposed design intelligence behind natural complexity, despite all the painstaking research and years of hard work carried out by those who favour the Biblical model is diddly squit, then I’m happy to accept your conclusion.
I've been very vocal about it here. I do not favor creationist models, not that they don't have some good models, because I think they do, but that creationists tend to make the science conform to a theological text, rather than see if science corresponds to it.
They would rather take an obscure passage and try and figure out ways why science should match up. Often times it doesn't.
Likewise, some evolutionists do the exact same thing. If there is even a hint of design, they are more than happy to come with any reason ad hoc why it couldn't possibly be teleological.
Neither is science. This is what the philosophy of science has spawned, because like it or not, most people within the fields of science have philosophies that make a dispassionate endeavor disappear.
One of the most universal of human behavioural traits is the tendency of children to ask of their parents, “where did I come from?”, “why is this the way it is?” or “how does this work?”
If this isn’t an almighty (pardon the pun) clue from the supernatural father to his children, then what exactly is it? Doesn’t the maker want his children to ask the very questions of their parent that it would have our children ask of us?
I believe so. Learning is a wonderful thing. Imagine how boring your life would be without a quest of some sort.
So come on guys, get your heads together, formulate the questions that need to be asked, put them to your maker, get the answers, post them on here and we’ll all be a lot better informed at the end of it.
How much easier could it be?
I'm not understanding you. Are you asking Christians to pray to God about scientific questions?

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by dogrelata, posted 02-01-2008 5:44 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by dogrelata, posted 02-02-2008 8:06 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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