Un-conversion

Revelation seems to be a popular way of finding God.But many atheists have the reverse experience, they just wake up one day and noticed that the kings isn't wearing any clothes.In my case I was born into a Christian family and 100% Christian community. So i was baptised, went to Christian schools, went to mass every Sunday, took all the sacraments, did all the rituals and was even a choir boy. I believed the whole thing. - all of it without reservation. I knew about all the sins and the saints, I believed Christ died for our sins and that the only way to get to heaven was through him. I studied the bible, knew bits of it of by heart and believed every word of it.So my question is, why would God deconvert me? Why be un-revealed?I didn't do anything to deliberately make this happen I just noticed after awhile at the age of 14 or 15 that it was a pile of old bollocks. All of it, simply nonsense that didn't stack up.(For the paranoid anti-evolutionists, this was before I knew anything about evolution).It seems to me that if this God does exist and he is indeed the God of the Christian faith, then he's done himself out of a soul. Now why would he do that?Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Edited by Tangle, : Can't spell 'choir'; twice.

I don't see why; i was reading the same bible and praying to he same God.

It had nothing to do with free will, I didn't choose to notice that the whole Christian thing is a made up children's story. It was a reverse revelation.I didn't go looking for alternatives I was just standing there in church one day when I noticed what a pile of horse manure it all was.Why would God do that?I know the usual waffle is about testing and long dark nights of the soul, but that really doesn't do it for me; it wasn't about doubt it was about certainty.How can you believe in something that you know is obvious nonsense?

Actually, as I'm an atheist, I obviously don't think it's got anything to do with god.My question is just a way of saying that there is no reason why god would un-reveal himself is there? It's all a nonsense. Because I suddenly saw the light, I am now denied entry into heaven? Simply cobblers, God wouldn't work that way; not and still be the God Christians claim he is anyway.The most obvious explanation is that Christianity is an error. Something we humans just made up.

Then, everything Christian is worthless except 'do as you would be done by' which is the core of prettey much every faith and all democratic societies.Christianity and faith in Gods are simply redundant.Of course, this is absolutely NOT what the established faiths have said until relatively recently. Choose my faith or go to hell is what they mostly say.

I suspect that revelations are always certain ;-)I have the usual scientific, guarded, intellectual reservations about the existence or otherwise of a non-intervening god. But the kind of god Christians talk about - that's just a preposterous joke.

Exactly correct. I believed all the smoke, smells and nonsense until I was old enough to see through it, which for me was about 15. Perhaps you could think about how patronising that is?

No, that's not my main point. My main point is about revelation. Many Christians make a big deal of personal revelation as a way of God finding them and vice versa.I experienced the opposite and I suspect many atheists did too. One day you just notice that all the dressing up, chanting belittling and embarassing nonsense and silly rituals are, well, daft. That none of it is actually sane, let alone true.If I'm saying anything meaningful at all about revelation, the fact that this 'god' un-reveals himself to some is evidence that revelation is not godly, it's human. Of course the underlying message of Jesus et al is fine, but there's no need for all the surrounding nonsense of heaven, hell, Gods and established churches to provide a reason to live a decent life.And you have a very modern, liberal, view of this, the established churches for almost the entirity of the Chritian history have held the opposite view (and many still do) - hell fire and damnation was the message. Be baptised and believe or go to hell.

The same place all revelations come from, my mind and only my mind. The religion. If there is a god, he has nothing to do with the religions that are established in his name.

I suggest that we all know where our thoughts come from - and it ain't from outside our heads!Not all religious beliefs come via revelation; in fact I'm pretty sure the vast majority are just born into their faiths and then assimilate. It always amuses me that no-one is born believing a different religion to their parents and revelations only happens to those that already have knowledge of that religion. Christianity is never revealed to a muslim in a remote village in the Atlas mountains - nope, it's always Islam.It so obviously all man made, it really puzzles me how many people can swallow it all - even when they can see how utterly embarassing the reality of faith as practiced by the faithful actually is.

The Golden Rule is not only embedded in most religions it's in most secular institutions too; our laws and socities are built on it. It was part of Jewish culture before Jesus, in fact it's a neurological condition that we call empathy.It's not an imagined idea, it's a part of our hardwiring. People that don't have it we call pscychopaths are we lock them away. Without empathy societies can't work, it's got absolutely nothing to do with Jesus and religion, it's an evolved trait that had it not evolved neither would humans - or monkeys.Now, if you say that a god invented empathy and planted it in our heads (and the heads of related species too), in such a way as to make it look like it evolved, there's nothing much I can say in response. But I am going to shake my head a little because you're now so far away from Christianity and the bible that you might as well start again and invent a new religion, one that makes a bit more sense of the known facts.

Just!It's what makes us human. It's gives us Theory of Mind, the knowledge that others have minds too, you know, consciouness - everything flows from that. Altrusm is a by-product of empathy. Without empathy why would we do anything for someone else?It's a brain condition that resides in the frontal cortex - it's not an idea or something we learn, it's hardwired. If the cortex is damaged, we lose it and behave like sociopaths.You may find the story of Fred interesting. Message 1It's not at all inconsistent with Christianity, it just makes it redundant. Christianity, along with most religions, just adopted something that is intrinsic to humanity and built a huge pile of ritual, myth and nonsense around it. We can throw it all away and start thinking on human terms about these things now. We don't need the crap anymore.Saying God embedded empathy in our brains just shoves God further back in the chain of events and has got nothing to do with biblical Christianity.

Sure, I understand that. GDR has accepted that the golden rule has existed before Christianity and in other religions.He's also said that the resurection is the belief that is necessary for Christianity - I'm fine with all this.But I think the second has got nothing whatsoever to do with the first.

People are also clever, they can learn to fake it. No, it's not all that makes us H. sapiens, I was on a bit of a rhetorical roll - but it is what makes us 'nice' (at least occasionally). And without it, I really doubt humanity could have evolved in the way we have.

This is a whole new argument and deserves it's own thread. But the fact that morality is a neurological function of the brain, is again something quite outside any concept of biblical Christianity. These arguments only resolve to some form of vague deism, not theism.