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Author Topic:   Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 231 (211469)
05-26-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by MangyTiger
05-26-2005 12:03 AM


On the Holocaust, Nazis and Evolution.
The Holocaust was an atrocity. I have often seen it related to evolution theory and so it might be reasonable to see if it was unique, or if there were other such examples that could be examined.
If we look at history what we find is that the actions of Nazi Germany related to the Holocaust were unique only in relation to the technology available and used. There is a near continuous string of such actions involving nearly every civilization, culture and people. Such behavior was not unusual, only the efficiency, technology and particulars were unique to Germany and WWII.
We can find examples of such behavior in the Bible, with God commanding the total distruction of a people for no reason other than their worship practices or simply to make room for a more favored Nation or people.
In documented history we can look at the expulsion of the Jews from Christian Spain (surprisingly being rescued by a Muslim Caliph), the behavior of the Young Turks in the near total destruction of the Armenians, the total destruction of the American Indian civilizations by the Christian Spanish, Portuguese, French and British invaders and the later behavior of the SCOTUS in expelling the Cherokee Nations.
All of these were of similar magnitude to the behavior of Nazi Germany and none are or can be attributed to evolutionary theory.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by MangyTiger, posted 05-26-2005 12:03 AM MangyTiger has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 231 (211986)
05-27-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by robinrohan
05-27-2005 3:31 PM


I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
From Mein Kampf:
I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by robinrohan, posted 05-27-2005 3:31 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by robinrohan, posted 05-27-2005 8:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 231 (211999)
05-27-2005 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by robinrohan
05-27-2005 8:48 PM


Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
Well, I believe in God and Evolution so I see no reason that wouldn't be true for most folk.
But I don't believe you want to go down that path since there is a near unending stream of quotes from Hitler and his government justifying his actions on Christian beliefs.
Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 231 (212007)
05-27-2005 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by robinrohan
05-27-2005 9:07 PM


Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
Wouldn't it be necessary to at least mention Him if one was a Christian?
Not always. Consider this one:
The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933
Shall I continue?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 231 (212027)
05-28-2005 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by robinrohan
05-27-2005 11:48 PM


Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
What does that have to do with anything. He says he's a Christian and that the work he's doing is based on Christian beliefs.
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934
He was doing the Christian thing!
You got that?
AbE:
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922
This message has been edited by jar, 05-27-2005 11:04 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 05-27-2005 11:48 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 12:09 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 231 (212038)
05-28-2005 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by robinrohan
05-28-2005 12:09 AM


Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
I believe Jesus is included in the above paragraph. Perhaps I was editing while you were posting.
Of course I'm quote mining. The point is, almost any perspective can be supported through judicious quote mining. The facts are that Hitler was a very bad person leading a cadre of equally bad folk.
To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity. The man was not nice.
To say that he was not a Christian and operating from what he believed (as did a large percentage of Christians everywhere) is also both ridiculous and dishonest. Christianity has been misused time and time again for truly horrible acts. Right now it is being used to discriminate right here in the US.
It's as simple as that.
This message has been edited by jar, 05-27-2005 11:35 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 12:09 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by dsv, posted 05-28-2005 12:47 AM jar has not replied
 Message 36 by cmanteuf, posted 05-28-2005 2:27 AM jar has replied
 Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 10:33 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 231 (212111)
05-28-2005 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by cmanteuf
05-28-2005 2:27 AM


Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
Absolutely. Any ideology can be misused. The problem arises when anything becomes exclusionary, then those outside can be looked down upon as lesser people.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 231 (212115)
05-28-2005 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by robinrohan
05-28-2005 10:33 AM


Re: I don't think you want to get into quote mining Hitler
In response to my saying
To try to attribute his actions to Evolution, the TOE, is as ridiculous as his distortion of Christianity
you say:
I did not say that nor did I intend it.
immediately followed by:
What I said was that there was, I think, a historical connection between theories of evolution and Nazism.
I'm sorry but you just did it again. You attribute Nazism to the TOE.
And then
I think there is a strand of thought in Nazism that is related to ideas about evolution.
You just need to remember that there are far more quotes related to Hitler's perceptions of Christian Duty than related to the TOE. He was acting in what he believed was a Christian manner just as those suppressing Gays today believe it is their Christian duty.
The quotes were from Mein Kampf and from a two volume book called The Speeches of Adolpf Hitler which has his speeches arranged chronologically.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 05-28-2005 10:33 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 231 (212357)
05-29-2005 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by robinrohan
05-29-2005 1:49 PM


Hitler was crazy
He could take any position and distort it to fit his perceived needs. He never learned much science and if you look at his actions, you'll see that he didn't understand science or engineering and so made really stupid decisions when it came to building weapons systems.
Hitler distorted everything. He distorted Christianity, he distorted Evolution, he distorted the concept of Nation-State, Loyalty, Sexuality. The man was a nut.
The only conclusion you can draw is that Hitler was incapable of reasoned thinking.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 1:49 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 2:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 231 (212363)
05-29-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by robinrohan
05-29-2005 2:13 PM


Re: Hitler was crazy
It is common to say that Hitler was not Christian. It's a copout though. Hitler was definitely Christian. What you're reading is a classic attempt to rewrite history, to absolve Christians and Christianity from the horror. IMHO that's the wrong tack to take, we need to acknowledge mistakes and try to make sure they don't happen again.
What Hitler did was really no different than what the Christian Missionaries (who then became the major landholders and planters) did in Hawaii or what the Christian Missionaries did to American Indians through the Christian Schools they sent the kids to.
Only the technology differed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 2:13 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 2:40 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 231 (212371)
05-29-2005 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by robinrohan
05-29-2005 2:40 PM


Re: Jar
Well, if you'll read more of what Hitler actually wrote you'll find many many quotes from him that contradict that statement. I've included several but I assure you there is an almost endless string of them. Keep reading, it is the way to learn.
The man was crazy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 2:40 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 231 (212379)
05-29-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by robinrohan
05-29-2005 3:17 PM


Re: Jar
If I offended you, I apologize. That was never my intent. The only point I was trying to make related to sources. One characteristic of the Germans, including the Nazis is that they documented everything. Few people in history are as completely documented as Hitler. You can find copies of nearly every speech he ever made as well as many of his discussions.
All I was saying was that instead of reading what someone says Hitler was thinking or saying, this is a case where we can actually go straight to the source. There are volumes and volumes of his writings, speeches and also of those close to him. Unlike many historical figures, here is one where we do have lots of information.
Again, if I offended you in any way, I apologize.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by robinrohan, posted 05-29-2005 3:17 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 231 (212401)
05-29-2005 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
05-29-2005 6:01 PM


Re: social ramifications of evolutionism
Once again you're simply showing that you have no knowledge or understanding of history. The posts you make descend from the peaks of absurdity into the valley of mistatements.
Applying animal breeding techniques to human beings was just about unthinkable until evolutionism made the idea respectable.
Not only is that incorrect it is an incredibly stupid thing to claim. The practice of marriage within class, of arrainged marriages, even the term "Of Good Breeding" far preceeded the publishing of Darwins book.
In addition you go on and make a pretty strong assertion about Margaret Sanger, yet another one you fail to support. Can't you ever understand that many folk may be sincere yet disagree with you folk?
You say:
Social Darwinism and other distortions did enter into this. Euthanasia was based on some idea that society would be healthier and stronger without the burden of those who needed special care. Such ideas wouldn't have been thinkable without evolutionism, whether they accurately represent it or not.
Shall I once again show you that the above statement can also be the direct result of Christian principles? Evolution and the TOE have never killed anyone, compared to the millions killed in the name of Christianity, of whole cultures wiped out in the name of Christianity, of books burned and languages erased and knowledge surpressed in the name of Christianity.
It's time you began to try to get a few of the FACTS through that wall you've built against thinking.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 05-29-2005 6:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 05-29-2005 9:32 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 231 (212430)
05-29-2005 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
05-29-2005 9:32 PM


Still resorting to misrepresentation.
That's about all that Evangelicals can do I guess.
I know, you'd rather have shamanistic tribalism that operates by witchcraft than that any of it be supplanted by Christianity, and all the lore of the occult in the books that were burned, because satan is so much smarter and more interesting than Jesus Christ, and he cares about us so much more.
Please show me where I said that or stop make such absurd claims.
And "good breeding" has referred to manners, not inheritance, for so long that any origin in the idea of blood inheritance is long since past.
Sure, right. LOL
What a stupid statement. What the hell do you think Blue Blood refered too?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 05-29-2005 9:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 05-29-2005 10:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 231 (212439)
05-29-2005 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
05-29-2005 9:53 PM


Re: Survival of Fittest tautalogical?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 05-29-2005 9:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
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