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Member (Idle past 6384 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
As I recall from a very quick skim of Mein Kampf, Hitler believed that the Jews and other "lesser" races were descended from apes, but the Nordic races were specially created by God.
He believed that he was aiding the work of the Creator by going against the natural evolution of the species. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
PaulK writes:
William L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich has a chapter on "The Mind of Hitler and the Roots of the Third Reich". It discusses the influence on Hitler's thinking of Gobineau, Nietzsche, Chamberlain, and even Wagner. I can't say for sure that Darwin isn't in the book (~1500 pages) but he isn't in the Index or the Bibliography, and neither is "evolution". Well Nazi race idea come from Gobineau who published before Darwin. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
robinrohan writes:
Yes it is, but people have known about natural selection as long as there have been people. Is this not very remindful of natural selection? Eugenics in general - the "weeding out" of the sick, etc. - is an attempt to help nature along (assuming that we know the direction nature is going). Hitler's exterminations, on the other hand, went against natural selection by killing strong Jews, etc. as well as weak. By arbitrarily killing those he percieved as being weaker, he actually weakened the gene pool instead of strengthening it. The topic is: Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism? I say, no it is not. The logical result of Darwinism is: let nature decide. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
robinrohan writes:
So, you've already come to a conclusion and you're looking for evidence to back it up? I think there is a connection.... But I'll get back to you about this matter whenever I finish Mein Kampf. In any case, it doesn't matter if there was a connection in Hitler's mind because Hitler was a loon. The topic is "Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?" Even if Hitler said, in Mein Kampf or elsewhere, that eugenics is the logical result of Darwinism, so what? He wasn't thinking logically. The topic is about a logical connection, not a percieved connection. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
In your own quote from Bullock, where Bullock quotes Hitler, there is no reference to "Darwinism". Hitler talks about "struggle" (kampf, if you will) but what has that got to do with "Darwinism"? It looks like the old strawman - "survival of the fittest" equated with the strong killing the weak.
So it seems to me that it isn't "crude Darwinism" at all, but a crude misunderstanding of Darwinism (by Bullock, that is). (I read Bullock many moons ago, but little sticks in my memory. It seems to me that there has been criticism of some of his conclusions.)
robinrohan writes: According to this book by Bullock, he was not sincerely Christian at all. I would not use the word "sincere" to describe Hitler. And I don't think most YECs are "sincerely Christian" either. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Exactly what I meant too.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
The question is: Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism?
Your post seems to be the same old same-old: Evolution is bad because (fill in the blank) used it to justify (fill in the blank). If a logical link exists, it should be easy to point it out without a long, drawn-out sermon of a post. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The logic is clear in the post, too taxing for your patience though it apparently is. Well, I did have ADD long before it became a fad. Anyway, I wasn't looking for "development" of logic. I was looking for logic. Something along the lines of:1. Darwinism says A 2. A results in B. 3. Therefore, Darwinism results in B. Can you have pity on those of us who can't wade through pages of rhetoric? Can you put it simply in three or four sentences? If you can do that, then we can debate whether or not your logic is sound. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Hey Faith,
I'm still waiting for a clarification of your "logic", which I asked for in Message 63. No "development", no extraneous detail. Just the simple logic. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: Darwinism says human beings were evolved by purely chemical and biological (mechanical and physical) means from early forms of life. Okay, I'll grant you that premise.
This results in a mechanical and physical understanding of human nature without any intrinsic value or meaning except that we exist, we got here. No. Altruism has benefits for the species. Most of the Ten Commandments can be traced back to survival of the species. Darwinism predicts morality.
A basic cynicism about our existence and the value of life, our own, human life in general. Devaluation of life in a nutshell. We got here, but for what? No. That does not follow from your premises. Neither does "basic cynicism" logically lead to eugenics. So, (at least) one of your premises is false and your premises do not support your conclusion.
Please be careful not to confuse your own morals and values with what can be logically derived ONLY from the ToE. Right back at you. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: ...any moral system that values life is independent from the ToE, outside the ToE and at odds with the implications of the ToE though this is unnoticed. I take that as a personal insult - both the idea that my moral values must conflict with the ToE and the idea that I wouldn't notice. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
An idiot? Ray Martinez said I was a moron.
Now I'm really confused. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Ifen writes: Anyone remember "situational ethics" and the uproar that caused? If you're in a lifeboat and there isn't room for everybody, who do you throw out? The sick, injured Captain who knows how to navigate a boat? Or the healthy teenager who couldn't find his a** with both hands? In a situation like that, eugenics doesn't seem very logical. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: The theory itself about how we got where we are, as a mass of meaningless chemicals just randomly tossed together over aeons is a what I was referring to as a mechanical and physical understanding of human nature that leads to the devaluation of life. First off, you're wrong about the randomness. Selection occurs at the chemical level as well as the biological level. So your false premise here does not lead to your conclusion.
You say evolution predicts morality, but that's because you know morality exists. It's all too easy to look at the history of humanity and just subsume whatever you find there under evolutionism. Don't confuse history with logic. Obviously we can't predict what evolution will do before the fact. What I am saying is that "survival of the fittest" logically predicts altruistic behaviour. A species benefits from protecting the young, weak, etc. because it makes them more likely to reproduce. Eugenics, on the other hand, arbitrarily chooses certain characteristics to preserve. It is diametrically opposed to natural selection.
It makes of morality, makes of the Ten Commandments, nothing but a blind mechanical meaningless instrument of survival. The Ten Commandments are a codification of what every society has known instinctively since the beginning of time. "Thou shalt not kill" = don't mess with natural selection. "Thou shalt not steal" = leave everybody enough to survive on. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" = take care of your own children. They make more sense in the context of survival than as the whims of God.
Always mere survival is the highest value from the evo perspective, a very empty value. A bunch of chemicals live and die. Big deal. Who cares. There's no need to project your own bleak outlook on everybody else. I've never met an "evo" who didn't see the beauty in life and have a purpose in life.
You might read up on the Existentialists, who express a different reaction to evolutionism than the optimistic types who thought it would lead to human progress. Now you're confusing philosophy with logic. Some philosophers may see a connection but the topic here is "Is eugenics the logical result...." Not "Can Darwinism be interpreted by Hitler, Nietzsche, Faith, etc. in a certain way...." As others have tried to show you, Christianity can be perverted too, but slavery, etc. are not the logical result of Christianity.
Absolutely leads to it, and to euthanasia and to all kinds of social and genetic engineering. That is what you have failed to show, and repeating it over and over doesn't strengthen your argument.
A general demoralization is another, and the state of despair and meaninglessness the existentialists wrote about. But most people just ignore its implications and go on living as if they didn't exist. Now you lost me. You say that Darwinism leads to a state of despair and meaninglessness. Then you immediately say that people go on living as if the implications didn't exist. Which is it? Are we in a state of despair? (Personally, I am not. I think your outlook on life is much more bleak than mine. ) Or do we just not reallize how desparate Darwinism has made us? People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: Didn't you say my premise was just fine last post? Your premise was fine until you injected randomness into it. It's the idea of randomness that's wrong.
...selection sure does put a lot of PURPOSE and MEANING into the process. I never said it did. Most people are capable of finding purpose and meaning in their own lives.
Science has some gall trying to explain the human condition if you ask me. Actually, I didn't ask you, but thanks for your input anyway.
Yup, survival, reproduction, exactly as I said. What a LOVELY value, a LOVELY purpose to life. Again, I never said that. Survival and reproduction are necessary for us to have life. But it's our responsibility to find our own purpose and meaning. We can't rely on any natural process or religious spoon-feeding to give it to us.
Natural selection is a blind process.... There is nothing purposive in natural selection beyond immediate adaptation. The appeal of human-directed selection, on the other hand, is obvious -- it would be guided by intelligence to supposedly ideal purposes. So you agree then that natural selection and eugenics are exact opposites?
And certainly your opinion trumps that of millions of others who disagree with you. I'm not going to get into a game of "my-millions-can-beat-your-millions". I'm also not going to call you on that completely unsupported assertion. This topic is about logic, it's not a popularity contest. If millions of people are illogical, that doesn't help your case.
This is not about you and me or anybody personally, this is about the natural tendency of the idea of evolution.... You are the one that claims that evolution --> lack of purpose --> despair. As somebody else has said, it seems that you percieve evolution as a threat to your world view and that produces despair in you. I only refered to your bleak world view in reference to your logic. Your reasoning would more properly be: evolution --> threat to Christianity --> despair among Christians. I certainly didn't mean it as a personal attack, but only as an observation. I'm sorry that you feel it necessary to call my objections "stupid". As I've said before in other threads, I'll leave it to the intelligent members of the board to decide whose posts make sense. ------------- Edit: I didn't see your edited-in, left-handed apology before I posted. Again, I'll leave it to the intelligent members to decide who's insulting whom. (Note to moderators: please don't sanction Faith on my account.) This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-05-31 01:00 PM People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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